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N_, I asked you a question; is replying to the likes of me beneath you?
There is some hilarious discourse in the Daily Express about the sacred monarch and the holy vaccine. Should the blessed god-queen “lead by example”? Or should she be given the role that a guinea-pig” might be forced to play in an amimal-torture camp? Or should she receive the miraculous vaccine before everyone else, out of “respect for her position”?
Maybe the team of 20 nurses who carry the vaccine vial and the Holy Needle on a golden platter into the special room at her favourite private hospital, preceded by a flamboyance of men in tights, should include at least one nurse who suffers from scrofula? Then the monarch could touch her in an generous attempt to cure her! Why not stage it all on Christmas Day, with a sprig taken from the Glastonbury Thorn on the table in front of her?
The Express even quotes some wag who wrote that the monarch should take it first, followed by the rest of the royal family, then by the lords, then by the members of the House of Commons. “If they all survive then us plebs will know it’s safe.” 🙂 Sure, and maybe they could be sent hundreds of miles cross-country to take it, rather as some of the proletariat were sent long distances by the Nationalist Hygiene Squad (NHS) to be tested?
Time to recall that the female pharoah’s husband, who is 99 years old, once said that if he is reincarnated (you what??) he would want to “come back” as a “killer virus”. (Imagine if someone in a mental hospital said that. Do we think they’d be discharged?)
Your allegories would work better if you leave the NHS out of it.
It is indeed surprising that in this age of awareness and education two pillars of irrationality still persist as important points in the governance of this land, religion and monarchy. Herein is the fully acknowledged conspiracy to which many are willing subscribers to our and their own detriment.That U.K. is a theocracy is not openly admitted. But how do you explain otherwise that the monarch has to be blessed by the head of the church in the ceremony of coronation, and that Bishops retain their status bestowed by the same monarch for them to remain as part of our ‘democracy’ as members of the House of Lords?
In fact how can you have an unelected upper house, and a royal prerogative and have a ‘democracy’?
SA, 06:54, #62912
– “That U.K. is a theocracy is not openly admitted.”
I think it’s a bit of an embarrassment now that the story of Jesus is common knowledge – give up all ownership, attest the power of love and truth to public crowds, trek to the capital city and there engage in civil disobedience, get arrested and stitched up on false charges.
– “…the monarch has to be blessed by the head of the church in the ceremony of coronation, and that Bishops retain their status bestowed by the same monarch…”
Similar arrangement to Saudi Arabia. I expect the UK’s monarchical connection to Saudi Arabia figures strongly in the US-UK “Special Relationship”.
Still, the aristocracy seem less aloof than N_; two of them happen to be my next door neighbours (and my landlords, obviously), but they don’t treat others as if they didn’t exist.
So. UK restrictions have been relaxed, infection numbers have clearly stopped their rapid fall and have probably started rising again. Apparently over Christmas and New Year we’re meant to treat our predicament as much as we can as if it wasn’t happening – impossible for those who work in healthcare, obviously. This looks likely to turn out really bad in January.
Oh, the grand old Duke of York,
He had ten thousand men;
He marched them up to the top of the hill,
And he marched them down again.When they were up, they were up,
And when they were down, they were down,
And when they were only halfway up,
They were neither up nor downA bit trite, but seriously, would someone make a decision dedicated to doing one thing or the other. In fairness, it isn’t just the UK that is dithering about all this. What is the mission objective? Is it just simply to touch the brakes to prevent hospital overload or is it to definitively reduce the virus transmisson? I get it, there are significant conflicting considerations but what is the goal?
– “What is the mission objective?”
Precisely. No one has proclaimed any explicit decision. The Westminster policy is merely to prevent hospital overload; “Protect the NHS” was their slogan.
It probably escaped from a lab after being cycled through umpteen generations in human cell cultures, where it gained intimate experience of human biology. It is not our friend; we should drive it to extinction. We could do that in five weeks. Here’s how:
Defeat it zone-by-zone.
– “…cycled through umpteen generations in human cell cultures”
This is called Gain of Function research – to see what “functions” your virus might gain. It makes lab escapes so potentially dangerous that it was suspended internationally mid decade, but restarted a couple of years later.
These labs are in city centres, employing people 9 to 5. If this sort of research is to continue at all the labs should be in remote locations, employing people live-in only, with everyone quarantined before they can go home.
– “What is the mission objective?”
This is precisely what is absent, a clear mission objective. To ‘flatten the curve’ and ‘take it on the chin’ until we achieve ‘herd immunity are three slogan that our great leader the eternal BOJO proclaimed at the outset. Although he appeared to backtrack, there is no sign that these objectives have been abandoned. The pressure from the business sector and their paid employees is too harsh to have a proper lockdown.
– “…cycled through umpteen generations in human cell cultures”
Rather fanciful based on no data whatsoever.
Well, SA, if you had a coronavirus from bats and you wondered what it might become if it made the jump to humans, how might you go about it? Here’s an example:
Adaptive Evolution of MERS-CoV to Species Variation in DPP4
– Abstract– Middle East Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus (MERS-CoV) likely originated in bats and passed to humans through dromedary camels; however, the genetic mechanisms underlying cross-species adaptation remain poorly understood. Variation in the host receptor, dipeptidyl peptidase 4 (DPP4), can block the interaction with the MERS-CoV spike protein and form a species barrier to infection. To better understand the species adaptability of MERS-CoV, we identified a suboptimal species-derived variant of DPP4 to study viral adaption. Passaging virus on cells expressing this DPP4 variant led to accumulation of mutations in the viral spike which increased replication. Parallel passages revealed distinct paths of viral adaptation to the same DPP4 variant. Structural analysis and functional assays showed that these mutations enhanced viral entry with suboptimal DPP4 by altering the surface charge of spike. These findings demonstrate that MERS-CoV spike can utilize multiple paths to rapidly adapt to novel species variation in DPP4.
And might this have happened to SARS-CoV-2?
SARS-CoV-2 is well adapted for humans. What does this mean for re-emergence?
Shing Hei Zhan, Benjamin E. Deverman, Yujia Alina Chan
doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.05.01.073262– Abstract
– In a side-by-side comparison of evolutionary dynamics between the 2019/2020 SARS-CoV-2 and the 2003 SARS-CoV, we were surprised to find that SARS-CoV-2 resembles SARS-CoV in the late phase of the 2003 epidemic after SARS-CoV had developed several advantageous adaptations for human transmission. Our observations suggest that by the time SARS-CoV-2 was first detected in late 2019, it was already pre-adapted to human transmission to an extent similar to late epidemic SARS-CoV. However, no precursors or branches of evolution stemming from a less human-adapted SARS-CoV-2-like virus have been detected…
We should drive it to extinction, but we can’t, because we lack the necessary unity.
The human species has achieved a kind of global dominance; we are the dominant form of life on this planet. Genesis 1:26-31:
– 26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
– 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
– 28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
– 29: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
– 30: And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
– 31: And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
And indeed “it was so”, and in supreme irony, collective, systematised rationality and objectivity did more to achieve it than anything else.But we’re incapable of coherent action as a species. As individuals, we’re so busy deceiving each other for individual advantage that no one trusts anything anyone says, making united action unachievable for us.
SARS_CoV-2 won’t wipe us out but a more lethal virus could, and unless we learn the lesson SARS-CoV-2 carries, global warming and mass extinction will make our civilisation a victim of our own success.
Genesis 2:22-24
King James Version22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
“God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”
Biblical inconsistencies, the first iteration of women didn’t work out OR “man” was initially androgenous. Who cares?
It is a possibility that Sars-Cov-2 was “man-made” or more likely, a natural occurrance. Infectious diseases have occurred throughout history long before anyone had the capability to manufacture one. Whilst it would be important, in time, to work that out right now it doesn’t matter, the house is on fire. Regardless of it’s origin we still need to deploy our best firefighting skills.
ps. Is the captcha “I’m not a robot” before I can post thing new?
Yep, another example of the bible getting it completely wrong. The reason I care is that it’s the most widespread foundational mythology of humanity – “…subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth” – and that’s precisely what humans are attempting, and will continue to attempt until, it seems, we become victims of our own myopic “success”.
Rational people reject the bible as a source of knowledge about reality, but to what extent can we reject the attitudes we grew up immersed in, and consequently are not even fully conscious of? The typical evolutionary tree still shows single-celled life at the root and humans at the pinnacle; the Genesis story of “Man’s” superiority retold in a form acceptable in this “scientific” age.
The bible story is very appealing to human arrogance. If science should teach us anything philosophical, surely it should be that we’re dependent upon nature rather than its master, and I suspect that SARS-CoV-2 is yet another example of our “mastery” blowing back at us.
Yeah, we need to fight the fire now, but we also need to know if it’s likely to break out again – that’s part of the fire-fighting effort. SARS emerged twice naturally, and escaped from labs four times…
Yes, the reCAPTCHA was added a few weeks ago.
‘ I suspect that SARS-CoV-2 is yet another example of our “mastery” blowing back at us.’
Aha Clark, in that very sentance you demonstrate perfectly the point you seem to be making! You make the distinctly human assumption it is US who have caused the problem, and that it is US who must find the solution. Might the virus not just be ‘natures’ way of controlling the human population? As far as nature is concerned the more folk that get wiped out the better surely? Just like every other plant or animal, a successful species will eventually succumb to some limiting device of nature that restores balance.
Yes indeed. Both climate change and SARS Cov2 may be nature ‘fighting back’ to control a species that is harming it. Sorry to anthropomorphize nature but I think yo know what I mean.
Steph, I think you’re unaware of your own competitiveness; it’s a problem I’ve had with you throughout, you seem very keen to score “points”. I’m not “assuming” a lab escape; I’ve been explicit that I consider it the most likely of the possibilities, and I have linked to evidence, direct and circumstantial.
It is a major problem that global population got so large before it began to stabilise. This was not inevitable; we have known for decades that modest prosperity, education and empowerment of women lead to the birth rate falling to around the replacement rate, but capitalist competition has been dominant, and that in turn has produced massive inequality and promoted rampant consumerism. But humanity has already passed peak birth rate everywhere but parts of Africa; population is stabilising.
Yes, I advocate addressing the SARS-CoV-2 problem, whereas you seem to advocate heads-in-the-sand, and massive suffering. I dislike what you promote, and I don’t accept fatalism – we have free choice; it is the essence of consciousness. What we lack is self discipline and humility.
Steph, why do you want a course that would result in such huge numbers of people suffering such a horrible way of dying? It just seems utterly inhuman to me; incomprehensible.
I don’t Clark, and it would be nice if you stopped insulting me by suggesting I am both unaware of my own shortcomings as well as inhumane. I was merely pointing out, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, that you admirably demonstrated the propensity of humans to believe in their supreme ‘mastery’ of the world by suggesting that SARS-Cov-2 could be inadvertantly of our own making.
BTW, what happens when the next virus occurs? Do we go through this every time from now on?
Steph and Clark
This forum thread I started hoping to have polite and meaningful and fruitful discussions. Sometimes people say challenging things but it is important tio maintain respect for other’s point of view. Clark, I admire your seeking of information and your ‘dedication’ to the cause of saving humanity against its own follies. In which case maybe this book We the heartbroken might help you. But it is important also to respect other’s point of view and thier right to ask questions. We all come from different backgrounds and therefore see problems in different ways. There was an interesting conversation today between Piers Morgan and Gove, in which Gove was squirming when asked why we had an exceptionally bad record whereas some Asian countries did so well, he had no answwer but just kept repeating the same old excuse that this was an unprecedented threat which we could not have been prepared for, whereas Piers kept repeating that this unpreparedness was much worse here than many other places and that the death toll here was the fifth worse in the world.
People cope in different ways, and for Steph, she can relate the problem more towards what is happening within her family and also seeing the relative futility of the measures. This futility or lack of decisive effectiveneess is due to the politicians and not the scientists but sadly some ‘scientists’ have sought to politicise these issues and obscure the very poor role the politicians have played.
Clark, with regards to the possibility that this virus may have been a laboratory escape, yes of course there are a few papers that discuss this from a scientific view, and this may be the case, that it was a laboratory escape. But the main point at the moment is for us all to unite and attack the real enemy, primarily the virus, then the inept mishandling of the crisis.
Because we need something cheerful and positive I end up with this:What makes this all the more remarkable is the truly heroic background of the Sudanes doctor, Dr. Taban, who has done this work.
SA – It has always seemed to me a kind of arrogance to suggest that we can control such things. This is not to say that we should not be mindful of our own personal impact upon our environment and try to tread lightly. But I have lost count of the number of times clients have said to me ‘I want a garden which will attract wildlife’. The temptation is always to say ‘If you want a garden which attracts wildlife, just lock the back door and never go out there again, wildlife will like that much, much better than anything you can create!’
‘when asked why we had an exceptionally bad record whereas some Asian countries did so well’
I understand that some have posited that this is may be due to those populations being more exposed to viruses in general, and thus having immune systems better adapted to repel this particuular one. I have no idea myself if this is likely.
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