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‘And what is this, nut-house central? Why are they allowed to post this gibberish here?’
I know. JHC, it’s really quite shocking isn’t it? Why can’t they see that 7 paragraphs of juvenile mocking, complete with infantile name calling, has far more worth.
Please for the sake of sanity can we try to discuss realities and try to move away from converting this conversation to another discussion about conspiracy theories. As we cannot ban CT mongers may be we can just ignore them and they might go somewhere else.
“I don’t mind people acting like idiots so long as they don’t mind me taking the piss out of them” – Jake Thackray.
I used to go and see him perform with John Etheridge at a pub near Epping.
SA, I disagree. The ability to recognise conspiracy theory is a very useful heuristic. I know very little about the workings of the immune system, but I didn’t need to in order to recognise that “a second wave is impossible” Yeadon was very probably talking bullshit, because it was so obviously conspiracy theory; “what they aren’t telling you…” etc. Later, ET discovered that he’s floating a company that stands to increase in value from further infection.
The ability to recognise conspiracy theory from its own features is a sort of intellectual immune system, and in the case of covid-19 it could have saved countless lives.
Oh and they won’t just go away; they never do. That’s another feature. But a few do recognise their errors of thinking, and reform. I’ve made that journey myself. I hope.
Clark
Of course we know they are CTT it is so obvious. Those who are now active here appear to be in a parallel universe and are not in touch with reality. But our trying to reason with them is giving them the opportunity to disseminate arguments that they get from OffGuardian and other conspiracy websites. Some of them disappear, like Duck and nothinguptop.
I am also aware that many of those conspiracy theorists overlap with climate change deniers, hiv deniers and antivaxxers but really don’t think this belongs here.Oh and distinctly also Trump followers.
How can you argue with delusions?There are always a range of interests behind official narratives and so things won’t always go according to plan, as interests conflict, within the global alliance to suppress the populist revolt against the ruling oligarchy under the guise of fighting a novel virus.
In the US those behind the coup against democracy are a powerful class who control the money, MSM, social media platforms and senior politicians across the aisle. So they control the commanding heights of the economy, but not the people below who they now intend to criminalise as insurrectionists, the new communism, following a huge peaceful protest against election fraud.
Trump said our side’s too nice, or more accurately the deep state is sick and vicious and prepared to say black is white and double-speak on a 24/7 repeat loop, as if it were true! For many years that involved ignoring Americans and bombing people overseas, but now I fear the target will be the majority of Americans, as how do you return to normal after such a blatant steal?
The “blatant steal” as Deluded Dave mentions above is the new Big Lie of our time. Just tell a lie, make it really, really big, and keep repeating it. There were MILLIONS of votes stolen! The dead voted! Ballot boxes were stuffed! What – evidence? We don’t need no stinking evidence!
SA – I tend to agree with Clark, that these tin-foilers ought to be called out and their characteristics noted. They follow a fairly predictable trend, and rarely have only a single delusion – as Dave shows above. Climate change denial, anti-vaxxer, pandemic denial, and now “deep state” nonsense thrown in with election denial.
Come to think of it, we have a number of Big Lies going around. None require evidence, and all can be extended just a bit further if any of the points are challenged, to make the lie a little bit bigger, and the conspiracy even more all-encompassing.
SA – January 10, 2021 at 22:39
“Please for the sake of sanity can we try to discuss realities and try to move away from converting this conversation to another discussion about conspiracy theories.”SA – January 11, 2021 at 07:58
“Of course we know they are CTT it is so obvious. Those who three now active here appear to be in a parallel universe and are not in touch with reality. But our trying to reason with them is giving them the opportunity to disseminate arguments that they get from OffGuardian and other conspiracy websites..
I am also aware that many of those conspiracy theorists overlap with climate change deniers, hiv deniers and antivaxxers but really don’t think this belongs here.”Ha ha. You can’t stop talking about conspiracy theories! Even though the phrase is gobbledygook, you need it to dismiss opinions which challenge your own. Deep down, you know that there is something seriously wrong with the covid narrative you embrace, but your cognitive dissonance is resolved with those two words. Below the threshold of your consciousness, a little voice is whispering “Just call them ‘nutters’ and you can ignore those uncomfortable questions.”
Why is the phrase gobbledygook? Because you (plural) don’t know what it means! Elsewhere on this site there is an entire thread where you tie yourselves in knots trying not to define a conspiracy theorist as “Someone who believes different conspiracies to me.” Yet despite this you’ve used it hundreds of times on this thread alone. You use the term as though it empowers your arguments but to a neutral observer, it signals the opposite.
Of course, you won’t accept any of this, such is the nature of cognitive dissonance. However luckily for you there is any easy way to prove me wrong: define “conspiracy theorist” in a way that doesn’t include yourself 🙂
ET “The various vaccines effects in the real world have yet to be proved/proven. If they do confer some degree of immunity, and/or reduce transmission and/or reduce the risk of severe disease they will speed a return to normal.”
You don’t seem to see vaccines as crucial in getting us back to normal. At best they may speed things up. You have previously expressed misgivings about the testing process. By what calculation do you consider vaccines worth the risk?
Node, no. My claim is that “theory” means a framework for thought like “theory of gravity” or “theory of music”; that “conspiracy theory” is a specific example of such a framework; that it has recognisable features; and that its adherents use recognisable techniques, eg. “what they aren’t telling you” in which “they” is never defined, and definition is never even attempted. I also propose that specific hypotheses of conspiracy theory necessitate ever-expanding conspiracies, eg. entire fields of science.
I have attempted to discuss this with you for years, but your response is simply to ignore me. You recently resorted to sock puppetry and got yourself banned rather than confront this. My personal experience as a moderator of this site was that conspiracy theorists frequently resorted to sock puppetry, and on that matter I have a question for you:
Node, have you posted to this thread as “Duck”?
But I agree with SA; this is off-topic here. It should be discussed at the thread I started for that purpose but, Node, it should be discussed honestly, with genuine engagement, rather than by cheating, by which I mean ignoring points that embarrass you and resorting to sock puppetry.
Mods
The above posts appear to be veering off topic and this forum is now about conspiracies. Could you please look at this?
Thanks.If Node wishes to discuss the topics within SARS cov2 and Covid 19 specifically then I will engage, but he/she has their own agenda, I will refrain from answering.
As to Dave he has now veered towards talking only about his hero Trump which is completely off topic and of no interest here.The mods are keeping an eye on all forum threads.
Contributors are advised to post any further comments about the concept of conspiracy theory on the relevant thread entitled “What is Conspiracy Theory?” or under a new topic created for the purpose.
“The various vaccines effects in the real world have yet to be proved/proven.”
I said this because it is unequivically true as admitted by the companies developing them. I also think Peter Doshi has made some good points and is worth reading. I guess Node, when I said that I was thinking more about the protective effects. I think the safety data THUS FAR is not worrying but because not enough time has elapsed they cannot know long term safety data. In general vaccines have a proven safety record and are generally considered to be amongst the most safe medical interventions. I think they can use that history to a certain extent to add weight (though not conclusively) to an argument that these new vaccines will likely be safe too. That said, this is a new vaccne modality, there are always possibilities of unforseen side effects with any new medication/treatment and strict surveillance needs to be maintained.
“You don’t seem to see vaccines as crucial in getting us back to normal.”
The history of such disease pandemics is that eventually an equilibrium is reached and they end, often but not always, having killed huge numbers of people. In my opinion the most useful comparison is the 1918 flu pandemic. It continued for 3 years and it was the second year that saw huge numbers of young people dying. We don’t have the same kinds of data from 1918 as we do now, they didn’t have the availability of medical care as we do now but with a much smaller world population and much less ability to travel it still killed millions. It was a flu virus, H1N1. You know, it was a “bad flu.”
Whilst I think there was a possibility of eradicating the current Sars-Cov-2 virus in the beginning, if world governments had acted properly, I think that ship has sailed and is in deep ocean water by now. It’s not that I don’t think such measures could work just that I don’t think it is now possible to get agreement across world governments to implement them properly. Therefore I think given it is in every country that it is going to remain endemic.
“At best they (the vaccines) may speed things up”
If vaccination converts serious disease to “stay at home, drink plenty of hot drinks, take two paracetamol” disease then just that will make a huge difference to its impact. It will lessen the need for lockdowns, reduce the numbers requiring hospitalisation and so on. (Yet to be proven though)
If vaccination does confer immunity, even if short lived it will act as a circuit breaker and similarly if it reduces transmissivity/transmissability. (what’s the correct term?) That blood samples from vaccinated people are showing antibody reactivity to antigen challenge is a good sign though again always with the caveat that in vitro doesn’t always translate to real world (in vivo) situations. Thus I think vaccines have a good chance to speed the return to normality.” By what calculation do you consider vaccines worth the risk?”
We had a short introduction to Sars-Cov-2 in early 2020. It was inadequately handled with insufficiently robust measures introduced too late and not just in the UK. Inevitably it came back again (it never really went away) with infections rising, hospital admissions rising. Again, the obvious threat was inadequately handled with half assed measures leading to the current situation with the addition of new variants. We are now in a worse situation then we were back in April 2020. Not just with disease matrics but people are fed up and restless, worried about their futures. It’s not a good mix. I fear history is repeating itself and we are inviting a similar course to 1918 albeit mitigated somewhat by modern medical care. This is happening world wide. Thus, having made a bollocks of it up to now with the situation being irretrievable (in practice though not in theory) with a potential for things to get hugely worse and continue for another 2 years cycling through lockdowns/partial lockdowns, on balance I think vaccinations are worth the risk.
Ginger root and meteorite dust: the Steiner ‘Covid cures’ offered in Germany”?
That article in the Guardian offers an indication of the power of the Steiner cult in Germany, and how it is having a field day with SARS-CoV2 and Covid-19. [1]
Steinerites are in positions of power in the “health”, “education”, and agricultural sectors in many European countries, and in a number of royal families too. (Watch out for references to “epochs”, “Alcuin”, etc.) They are also among the main pushers of homoeopathy. If “the prestigious Charité university hospital” (in other words, a hospital) in Berlin is referring Covid-19 patients to a Steiner-cult clinic, that will be because the Steiner cult has already infiltrated the senior echelon at the said hospital.
Interesting to read that Germany’s highest grossing chemist’s (“drugstore chain” in the US English that the Guardian uses), DM-Drogerie Markt is run by self-professed anthroposophists.
The general rule is don’t trust any organisation with a Triodos bank account.
There are probably Steiner-loony references in the World Economic Forum’s pandemic-related “Great Reset” [2], especially given the involvement of Britain’s deranged and mentally subnormal crown prince.
Note
1) The reference in the article to Steiner schools as “left-leaning” is totally ignorant and mistaken. Indeed the Guardian’s hyperlink for that very assertion goes to an article about the support those schools have received from Michael Gove, who is not known as being leftwing. And it is not simply that Steiner loonies got into “organic farming” in the 1960s. The very term “organic farming” comes from Steinerism – not from the 1960s but from long before then. (Look up “Betteshanger Conference”.) We should keep our antennae out for Steiner-significant framing and spinning of official SARS/Covid propaganda in all countries.
2) Klaus Schwab (founder of the European Management Forum which became the WEF) got his doctorate at ETH Zurich I see. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Steiner cult has a great deal of power in that institution.
– ”By what calculation do you consider vaccines worth the risk?”
Here’s one huge difference between vaccines and a spreading virus – vaccines aren’t infectious. If a vaccine turns out to be doing more harm than good, authorities can stop administering it, and/or individuals can avoid being vaccinated with it. The only way to avoid SARS-CoV-2 is to avoid anyone potentially infected by it.
“Don’t say you are exercising when you are really socialising,” says “health” secretary Matt Hancock.
There’s no law forbidding socialising while exercising, any more than there’s a law forbidding resting on a bench because your exercise pattern goes Exertion-Rest-Exertion. But who cares about the law any more?
Want to exercise? Buy a gym membership and the rulers will tell you on your smartphone when the gym is open, and under what conditions you’re allowed to go there, and don’t think the cameras won’t be running. And forget about walking in the countryside. Unless you own it, of course.
Eleven months into fascism, the rulers really don’t like people socialising off-Apple and off-Google.
Is waving to somebody allowed, or is it a case of “That’s what enemy saboteurs WOULD claim they were doing”? I don’t ask that lightly. All it would take is a few bombs conveniently to explode, or just to be “found”, or a hostage-taking or crazed stabbing incident, and the “No Socialisation Where We Can’t See You” order will arrive like an arrow out of the blue.
Leaving considerations of payment aside, would the British army if it called up all its reserves have the logistic capability to supply food to 60 million people imprisoned 24 hours a day in their homes?
Fascism is a curtain-twitcher’s paradise. Imagine how many calls the police must be receiving (and following up) from Daily Heil readers who say they’ve seen somebody walk in the park for too long, or in the wrong place, or talk to someone, or walk past their window twice in one week.
That’s all being encouraged by the government.
There will probably be a special phone number soon – or Facebook page maybe.
“Seen someone ‘exercise’ in a banned way?
Call this number in confidence.
Protect the NHS.”Dave, it has been said that there are 10 types of people; those who know binary and those who don’t. But maybe it’s a bit more complicated than that 🙂
Such indeed is the nature of cognitive dissonance that to explain the rising daily death toll and overwhelmed NHS some have to find a lot of other explanations for why this is happening, anything except that there is a novel coronavirus that causes serious disease. And why do they KNOW that these deaths are not due to Covid-19? Why of course because according to them the virus has not been isolated and in any case the PCR is totally unreliable. Of course all the NHS staff are also part of this deception. They appear daily on TV saying they are now exhausted and reaching capacity for no reason whatsoever, and may be also because suddenly all the NHS professional have collectively lost the ability to make correct diagnosis, mistaking a bad flu season for a non existent viral induction.These same people then claim that we cannot accept their point of view because we suffer from cognitive dissonance.
SA – “Of course all the NHS staff are also part of this deception”
Precisely. And all the statisticians including local record keepers, virologists, epidemiologists, politicians, immunologists, etc. etc. etc., all over the world.
This is why it fits my description of conspiracy theory. It is not the possibility of some conspiracy that makes it conspiracy theory; powerful people indeed conspire. No, it’s that universal conspiracy is the central central claim, and all the other claims (PCR false positives, misclassification of deaths, payments to US hospitals for ventilation etc.) are seized upon from the tiniest shred of evidence and repeated over and over, ignoring everything to the contrary, to fit around the central claim of unlimited conspiracy.
And if anyone objects? Well, they must either be evil agents, or have psychological problems such as cognitive dissonance which prevents them seeing past “MSM” brainwashing, unlike the Fearless Warriors Who Can Face The Terrifying Truth. We’re either evil, or cowed by fear, SA. But we mustn’t take the piss out of those who feel so superior, eh, Steph?
This is why there’s so much overlap between the adherents of the various conspiracy hypotheses. There’s really only one claim, that everything is run and all information is controlled by this grand, unlimited conspiracy. It merely looks like multiple hypotheses – climate change, anti-vax, covid denial, HIV denial, whatever; really, they’re all the same hypothesis – overarching worldwide conspiracy. And that’s why it’s called conspiracy theory; nothing to do with genuine conspiracy, but provides very good cover for it!
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