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Dave
This kind of statement just betrays total ignorance of how PCR works and has been addressed many times before. If you do not have any scientific background whatsoever you could be taken in by this sort of nonsense and it would be difficult to convince you that it is nonsense so let us pass on that.And this might help you understand, although I am not sure it will .
This video (suggested by the excellent Off-Guardian) exactly sums up my feelings about the covid-19 narrative.
Dave, in what field(s) do you have higher education, and/or professional or specialist experience? Not scientific fields, presumably, but there are many others.
And as you think this pandemic is fake or a hoax or something, what do you think a real pandemic would be like?
I’m expecting you to ignore these questions or evade answering directly; please demonstrate good faith by proving me wrong.
Yes, Node. And how many people have been executed so far for opposing “the covid-19 narrative”?
(And what “narrative” is that, exactly? The testimony of doctors from all over the world? The graphs I cite as evidence?)
84,000 dead so far (oh, minus 14%, as per Steph). I hope you enjoy wearing your red arm band Node. I personally find your intellectual bullying highly offensive.
Node, I find your 11:37 comment unbelievably offensive. We have doctors contributing to this thread, who have worked themselves to exhaustion, risking infection themselves to save lives and ameliorate suffering. By insinuation, you have depicted them as murderous thugs. Words are inadequate to express my revulsion.
Unlike the juvenile video from OffGuardian posted above, this article from the Canary is extremely relevant and should induce some soul searching especially from those who claim to be concerned about their neighbors and fellow citizens:
“We need to support each other
We do know by now that a lockdown comes at a massive cost. People’s mental health undeniably suffers, as more and more of us feel lonely, anxious and isolated.
So it’s up to all of us to think proactively about what we can do in our communities to help. All of us – anarchists, socialists and Covid-deniers alike – can agree on one thing: that the government has failed us. We can’t rely on it to look out for the most vulnerable people, so we need to continue to build the mutual aid networks that we formed during the first lockdown. We need to continue using our neighbourhood WhatsApp groups – or set them up – and check in with our neighbours. A sense of community will give people strength.”Node, 2+2=4, 4-2=2, 2 is 50% of 4. I used similarly basic maths skills to produce these small calculations using information from ONS 2020 weekly all deaths.
Would you check my calculations please to ensure that the fgures are consistent with 2+2=4?Disregarding the cause of death for a moment I don’t think you can plausibly argue that the deaths didn’t happen. Assuming you agree that as given, please outline your explanation as to what might have caused the increases in deaths with a reference to the age groups I mentioned in that post. I ask this in particular for the 15-44 age group where there was an almost 5% increase in deaths in 2020 compared to 2019. At first glance 5% doesn’t seem that much but bear in mind that this age group has a very low risk of death in general. If say a cardiac surgery unit had 5% more deaths than the average or a maternity unit had 5% more neonatal deaths than average it would be a national scandal. (and has been).
ET: I fear you are wasting your time, it is not possible to make a denialist see reason. The explanation will be along the lines of “The lockdowns caused the excess deaths!”. Pointing out that countries (like Sweden, the US) which did not have any meaningful lockdown also had excess deaths, will gain you the response “The figures are fixed! It’s all a hoax!”.
Every time you point something out, the conspiracy just gets a little bit bigger to include a negation of the inconvenient fact.
I heard a wise hillbilly in West Virginia pointing out something that evades rational people – you cannot reason a person out of a position that they did not reason themselves into in the first place.
You will not get a denialist to see the thing they are denying. It has become too important to their sense of being, they have too much invested in it. Their heads have been in an echo-chamber of like minded denialists, their views have been reinforced too often.
ET, I think you are taking the video too literally. I am not challenging mortality statistics on this occasion – I may get into that discussion another time.
“2 + 2 = 5” is a metaphor for how authority can impose a belief system, even a ridiculous one. The majority don’t question the narrative for a variety of reasons that don’t necessarily imply stupidity or ignorance, a certain proportion will feel unease but ignore it for expediency or more complex reasons, a small few will speak out and be punished to deter les autres, and a further few will see it as an opportunity for advancement by displaying their willingness to embrace the new thinking. Very quickly, the new orthodoxy becomes self-policing.
Putting aside our differing opinions on covid, do you agree that this video portrays a real process by which authority implements and enforces its agenda?
Perhaps Glenn, perhaps not. I still think it is worth the effort to try flesh out the basis for other people’s argument. It helps me to develop my own understanding and also hone my argument. It makes me check things out and research stuff I might not otherwise look into. If someone I encounter day to day makes similar arguments I have ready counter arguments. Although I doubt many people besides the contributors actually read this thread passers-by may see some of what is posted. (I could be wrong about that).
For myself Glenn, in the early 2000’s I got all my news from MSM. It was Clark’s favourite conspiracy theory (9/11) that made me realise there were alternative sources of news and information. Things are different in 2021 and it is easier for people to move away from only MSM sources but nonetheless sources claiming sensational conspiracies are a route by which people make that move. The same techniques of omission and comission used ny MSM to direct a narrative can be used by alternative news sites also. Sometimes it takes time to work out which are and which are not doing so. Equally it’s good to be challanged.“Putting aside our differing opinions on covid, do you agree that this video portrays a real process by which authority implements and enforces its agenda?”
I’d rather state a real process by which some authority CAN (and has in the past) implement and enforce it’s agenda but in general I agree with a concept that video is trying to portray albeit lacking subtlety. I would however say that Orwell’s 1984, Huxley’s “Brave New World” explore the same concept in a much more eloquent and nuanced way. That video says nothing new. That authority can slide into dictatorship isn’t a new observation. Also, to be clear, I don’t think it applies to the current pandemic narrative.
“ET, I think you are taking the video too literally”
“This video (suggested by the excellent Off-Guardian) exactly sums up my feelings about the covid-19 narrative.”My reply was “half jokng, half in earnest” Node. As I am sure you realise I was deliberately being a little facetious.
I used to read off-guardian and they were reasonably good in some of their social commentary. I had to stop reading them because of the singular focus on trying to prove the pandemic a hoax. I try to read from across the spectrum but I gave up on them. They use the very same MSM techniques of commission and omission to, in my view, dishonestly make an argument. They are agenda driven and that drove me away.
Node, I don’t think you will get much disagreement from most here in regard to what you say in the main paragraph of your post at 14.26. Indeed that is why most will be reading Craig’s posts because he very often speaks to that and highlights the absurdities and abuse of power and the often pathetic MSM coverage. Such things are happening. That such is so however doesn’t rule out that a real and devastating pandemic is happening at the same time. Both things can co-exist. The majority of readers and posters here I suspect are very questioning of authority and very suspicious of authority and are concerned with the direction things are moving.
I’m going to have to stay away from this thread.
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[ Mod: Sorry to hear of your reaction to items on this thread, Clark, but hang in there. New guidelines have been drafted which could help to resolve some of the ongoing issues. ]
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I am finding it hard to frame words. Today I have been depicted as a thug who will murder to enforce compliance with a lie. I have not presented arguments based upon any “narrative”. Arguments I have presented are based on statistics collated from such broad sources that to deny them can only be described as conspiracy theory – vast conspiracy.
“I’m not a robot”
Clark. At no time have I EVER called you filth. Please stop doing this. You are right, take a wee break, and I hope you feel better soon.
Clark, take a break if you need to. Remember, it’s the internet. Don’t take things personally. You are not responsible for other’s views, they are. All you can do is present your agrument even if you have to do it over and over again.
ET @14.36 What a rational, kind and well-considered response.
Re the 15-44 age group. Yes, it is clear to see that increase in excess deaths in this age range for 2020 in the ONS data, although 2019 was rather a lower than ‘normal’ year, the increase on 2018 was 3.2%, perhaps a little less than that when adjusted for age and population. One interesting thing I noticed is that age group seems to have taken rather a larger and longer hit in the annual blip normally associated with heatwaves in weeks 30-36 than other groups this year. This is apparent in the EUROMOMO graphs here
https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/
Other things of note are that, in europe as a whole, the excess deaths in the second wave are still only about 50% of those experienced in the first wave, and comparable to winter 2017/2018. Of course we are noowhere near the end of winter yet and I suspect the UK situation might be a little worse than europe as a whole right now.Its good to keep scrutinising all the available info, and to look at things like different age groups and other illnesses, whatever one’s personal opinions are.
Steph
“Other things of note are that, in europe as a whole, the excess deaths in the second wave are still only about 50% of those experienced in the first wave,..”
It is not surprising since we are getting better at treatment but the morbidity rate and hospital admissions are worse than the first wave already and will continue to rise. Fixation on mortality only misses half the picture.
Steph, no you’ve never directly called me filth, but with all the other accusations (plus the lavish emotional compliments for whoever provides any snippet that might be used to either belittle the severity of the pandemic or argue against social restraint), you may as well have done.
Yes, why don’t I take a break, eh? That’d suit you fine. Then you can drag those not familiar with the techniques of conspiracy theorists down into tiny details, generate some “controversy”, and you might entrain a few more followers.
Oh look, you’ve started already! See, it wasn’t the covid, it was the heatwaves! Despite ET’s original data being covid data.
‘Fixation on mortality only misses half the picture.’
Agreed, there are many many things that need to be considered. But morbidity is very much harder to evaluate though as I’m sure you know. Where it has been attempted there are difficulties, participants have often had at least one co-morbidity already, there is a range and variation in the severity of co-morbidities, there is some difficulty in connecting a given co-morbidity directly to covid-19 etc etc.
Just so you know, Clark, things are indeed going to change around here. New guidelines will be posted in the next few days. There is an allusion to the forthcoming changes in the latest response to Node.
Incidentally, Node is back on premod for continued violations and challenges. He was on a yellow card already, but kept on committing fouls and arguing with the referee.
– “but I do also get a very strong sense that those still clamouring for harsher restrictions now view themselves as ‘morally’ right, always an exceedingly distasteful attitude in my opinion”
No swear words necessary. NO WAY can 84,000 deaths be a moral issue, and anyone who treats it as such, well, “exceedingly distasteful”.
“Agreed, there are many many things that need to be considered. But morbidity is very much harder to evaluate though as I’m sure you know.”
Sorry your assumption is wrong, I do know. I meant morbidity from the virus, when someone is admitted gasping for breath with a typical CT scan and clinical picture with a low oxygen saturation and perhaps needing ventilation; that is morbidity related to the virus – it is a very clear clinical picture. All those people admitted to hospitals all over the country and around the world are admitted because they have an illness called covid-19 whatever else they have; they would otherwise not be admitted in those huge numbers.
“Where it has been attempted there are difficulties, participants have often had at least one co-morbidity already, there is a range and variation in the severity of co-morbidities, there is some difficulty in connecting a given co-morbidity directly to covid-19 etc etc.”
Steph I am sorry to say but I think we are talking about different things here. The hospitals are full and those in hospital with covid-19 related admission are over 30,000 – an unprecedented figure.
Come on, only 84,000 deaths. Not enough! The hospitals are already more than full, more patients than the health service can ventilate. One last push, they’ll be gasping for breath without even palliative care, without even drugs to ease their parting. Come on, we can do it! Let’s encourage some more anti-mask demonstrations, some more unmasked, un-distanced “it’s all a fake” demonstrations. You wouldn’t want to be like that teacher, forcing a little boy to repeat a lie.
SA. Sorry, yes clearly we are talking about 2 different things. I thought you were talking about analysing the data.
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