Vaccine contaminants and safety


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  • #54297 Reply
    SA

      Paul

      ‘Yet your ire seems reserved for Dr. Judy Mikovits, and a few like-minded alternative doctors and scientists.’

      What exactly are alternative doctors and scientists? There is only one medicine and science and these are evidence based. There are scientists who produce controversial results which may either be shown to be mistaken and doctors and pharmaceuticals who harm people by mistakes and sometimes deliberate actions but on the whole the checks on science attempt to hold to account by having a clear transparency and by backing practice with actual evidence. Many of those we have discussed on what you call alternative doctors and scientists hold beliefs and self publish and make documentaries but do not contribute to scientific advancement at all because their work is worthless scientifically either because it is flawed in design or because of deliberate faking of results or sometimes through innocent mistakes. The practice by certain official bodies that is illegal or fraudulent is also a fact which we are aware of. But two wrongs never make a right.
      We should really all be concentrating on the misuse of science for political purposes by governments, as we are seeing now with this pandemic. We should see and call out the subversion of evidence and the recruitment of scientists and medical advisers as government employees, something so blatant, rather than chase fantasy stories by discredited scientists. Neither Clark nor I are interested in denigrating Wakefield or Mikovits as people but for their insistence on spreading misinformation which has been proven to be so again and again.

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      #54318 Reply
      Paul Barbara

        ‘A mass sterilization exercise’: Kenyan doctors find anti-fertility agent in UN tetanus vaccine.
        The Kenyan Catholic Bishops Conference, and the Kenyan Catholic Doctors Association, can hardly be accused of being ‘anti-vaxxers’, or of being mass fraudsters. But to back them up (as though they needed it), there is the ‘Ex Prime Minister Exposes Tetanus Vaccine In Kenya As A “Targeted Mass Sterilization Program”.
        This little WHO/Unicef/Gates trick was also used in Mexico, Nicaragua and the Philippines.
        Gates is on record as saying that vaccines can cure the overpopulation problem. Sure they can, laced with hCG.
        But the ‘Empire Strikes Back’: Licence of industrial lab Agriq-Quest suspended.
        Actually, the lab was only suspended by an external body re water and soil assays, but the objective was to make the public think they had been in the wrong over the spiked ‘Tetanus’ shots. And the apology for a human being, the Health Minister, actually suggested the Catholic Bishops Conference and Catholic Doctors may have ‘spiked’ the vaccines themselves!
        Why on earth would the Kenyan Government connive with the WHO, Unicef and Gates’ GAVI?
        Well, African countries, like many other countries around the world, do seem to have a problem with corruption. It has not been suggested that bribery came into the Kenyan episode, but it was certainly alleged re vaccines in Nigeria. So let’s say, it is a possibility…
        Gates allegedly bribes Nigerian Senate to pass Mandatory Vaccine Law:
        Bill Gates offered House of Reps $10m bribe for speedy passage of compulsory vaccine bill – CUPP alleges‘. (Daily Post).

        #54335 Reply
        SA

          Paul
          You seem to have a very basic problem understanding how to verify facts from allegations. From your first link:

          “We sent six samples from around Kenya to laboratories in South Africa. They tested positive for the HCG antigen,” Dr. Muhame Ngare of the Mercy Medical Centre in Nairobi told LifeSiteNews. “They were all laced with HCG.”

          So this is an allegation. If this allegation is to be verified you will need more than one person making his allegation, you need the name of the labs to which the samples were sent and actual data to support these findings. I am not even going to dispute whether vaccines may or may not be laced in such a way as to reduce fertility but just to say I have no way of finding out from all the links that you have sent that this is true other than someone saying it is true.
          It seems that this is not a new allegation as seen from this from 1995.

          The vaccine currently supplied by UNICEF has been used for more than 50 years in many countries and is one of the basics in immunization. The Department of Health notes no unusual increase in abortions since 1990, the year the anti-tetanus drive was accelerated. Prior to 1990, anti-tetanus vaccination had been going on in the Philippines since 1983. Even WHO assurances that tetanus toxoid contains no abortifacients have failed to allay public fear. It is unfortunate that the people and groups behind this misinformation campaign have done so much damage to a decidedly beneficial and needed health program.

          As for Bill Gates I am not sure when he said that but I am also aware that vaccines used as (reversible) contraceptives have been developed but I am not sure whether they are actually being used. This is not entirely outrageous if it is done with the knowledge of the individuals concerned and provided they are safe and properly tested. But you just have a throwaway comment without any links or evidence and this scatter of allegations in your posts makes it a bit difficult to take your allegations seriously.
          So Paul next time you post any allegations, please check the facts first, check your sources, check that there are independent verifications of what is being alleged and whether the allegations are verifiable. One of the biggest propaganda tools used by western governments is to make unverified allegations such as that WMD were found in Iraq and then to ask others to produce the evidence that they are not. This is exactly what you are doing by these posts.

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          #54362 Reply
          Paul Barbara

            @ SA as a quick response, ‘…Even WHO assurances that tetanus toxoid contains no abortifacients have failed to allay public fear…’
            Are you really stating that as any kind of evidence, when the WHO is alleged to be a party to the abomination (and I do not use that term lightly – 500,000 Kenyans are said to have been made infertile without there knowledge or (obviously) consent). And they DENY it (shades of Mandy Rice-Davies)?
            And that becomes a major point in your dismissal of my comment?
            Have you considered, for just one moment, a young African buck marrying his chosen bride (or vice versa), and then finding out that the lady is infertile? HAVE YOU?
            If the Kenyan Catholic Bishops Conference, and the Kenyan Catholic Doctors Association are not good enough for you, then ‘Ride on’.

            #54373 Reply
            SA

              Paul
              This is an amazing response. The whole of the catholic church is not in any sense qualified to make a scientific statement like this and if this is your argument then it is you who should move on and not try to be taken seriously.

              500,000 Kenyans are said to have been made infertile without there knowledge or (obviously) consent). And they DENY it (shades of Mandy Rice-Davies)?
              And that becomes a major point in your dismissal of my comment?
              Have you considered, for just one moment, a young African buck marrying his chosen bride (or vice versa), and then finding out that the lady is infertile? HAVE YOU?

              Where exactly is the evidence that 500,000 Kenyans are said to have been made infertile? Let me tell you are “said to have been” is only a statement it is not proof, where exactly is the proof? Then this heart tugging scenario of two Kenyans not being able to have a child? Where is the evidence? And in return :
              Have you Paul Barbara considered how two Kenyans marry and have a child only to lose it to neonatal tetanus? HAVE YOU?
              And why is this story only a problem found by the Catholic church and not reported elsewhere? When you can produce any scientific evidence that tetanus vaccine produces infertility through a proper scientific study and not the catholic church, then I can begin to take you seriously.

              • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by modbot.
              • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by modbot.
              #54374 Reply
              SA

                Paul
                Your obvious faith in the Catholic church means that your whole outlook is based on faith, not on evidence. It seems to me that this is the basic problem. In fact the Church has moved on especially under the current Pope who is more enlightened than this and is trying to modernise the catholic church. I have in my life had experience with most faiths and in fact having gone to a catholic mission school, know Catholicism very well and how it works, I was almost converted when I was very young.
                I do respect people having faith but what I object to is when this faith is projected irrationally and in an unscientific way and ignores the progress that happened in the world in over time. I also understand a very basic principle: there are so many faiths and each claims to be the true faith, so many of the other faiths must by definition either be wrong or alternatively they may all be wrong in one way or another. Use faith as a personal issue to guide your dealings with people is fine, but use it to try and force other people to believe in the same way is not.

                #54376 Reply
                SA

                  And this is more likely to explain why there is so much infertility in Kenya.

                  • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by modbot.
                  #54384 Reply
                  Paul Barbara

                    I was brought up a Catholic, but am no longer so. My opinion of the Vatican is almost unprintable. But this is not a matter of faith, this is a matter of a number of different lab checks, all of which came up with hCG contamination. The same happened in Nicaragua, Mexico and Philippines.
                    On top of that, an ex-Prime Minister of Kenya admitted that the vaccines had contained the sterilising agent.
                    Then there is Gates and many others acknowledged interest in bringing down the number of children born into the world.
                    Your attempt to put it down to ‘faith’ just won’t wash – and no, I am not going to provide you with signed confessions from Gates, UNICEF and the WHO.

                    #54389 Reply
                    Dr Edd

                      @Paul Barbara – I suggest you examine fact checking websites before recycling old rumours.

                      The rumour is rated ‘False’ on Snopes – Is Tetanus Vaccine Spiked with Sterilization Chemicals?

                      There’s a summary of the Kenyan government’s response on the BBC News – Kenya Catholic Church tetanus vaccine fears ‘unfounded’: Kenya’s government has dismissed allegations made by the country’s Catholic Church that a tetanus vaccine can cause sterility in women.

                      The scandal was based on an ignorant misconception that arose from a birth control trial in India, via an incidental association with tetanus (the toxin) which then became confused with the tetanus vaccine. The rumour spread via the church from there via Tanzania to Kenya, where the vaccine was tested with inappropriate equipment (inc. home pregnancy kits!). Subsequently, accredited testing facilities – including one lab nominated by the Vatican – found no traces of the hormone hCG at all. That finding has been verified multiple times. If those labs aren’t good enough for you, then “jog on”.

                      Here’s the full story from Africa Check: ANALYSIS: Why does an old, false claim about tetanus vaccine safety refuse to die?

                      How the rumour started back in ’94
                      The first campaigns against the tetanus vaccine were based on a misunderstanding of a scientific study in India in 1994 that tested a birth control treatment.
                      The study’s active ingredient was a subunit of a hormone necessary for pregnancy to happen and that is also produced in large amounts throughout pregnancy. It is called human chorionic gonadotrophin, or hCG for short. Home pregnancy tests show up positive when this hormone is present in a women’s urine.
                      For the Indian trial, researchers used a protein similar to the tetanus toxin as a carrier for the hCG. This would then cause the woman’s immune system to eliminate hCG to prevent pregnancy. The process was reversible, though.
                      An American anti-abortion organisation, claiming support from the Vatican, used this information to call for a congressional investigation into Mexico’s tetanus vaccination programme. Human Life International claimed that the tetanus vaccine being administered contained hCG which would leave women infertile.
                      The organisation questioned repeated vaccinations, why women were targeted and why women of childbearing age were “being treated as nothing more than uninformed, unwitting, unconsenting guinea pigs”.
                      But the WHO said there was “no connection” between their tetanus vaccine programmes and the Indian trial, which was “not sponsored, supported, nor executed” by them.
                      (Note: In Africa, the origin of tetanus vaccine skepticism appears to be a Catholic mission hospital in the southern part of Tanzania. The hospital’s medical director read about the tetanus vaccine rumours and shared it at a regional meeting in 1994.)

                      After the rumours spread, some people used home pregnancy kits to detect hCG in the tetanus vaccine. This method is completely inappropriate, as the kit is designed to test for hCG in urine or blood serum, not in concentrated vaccines.

                      when proper lab tests were conducted on the vaccines in six laboratories around the world – including a lab chosen by the Vatican – no hCG was found.
                      A Catholic health care group says tetanus vaccines used in Kenya are not secretly laced with anti-pregnancy hormones, but it is urging the government and public health officials to conduct more tests to confirm it.
                      The previous lab results that appeared to show evidence of the human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) hormone in Kenya’s tetanus vaccines were “false positives,” said leaders of MaterCare International, a respected health organization that works in Africa.

                      The sinister smears about Bill Gates are also false – read up on Snopes: Did Bill Gates ‘Admit’ Vaccinations Are Designed So Governments Can ‘Depopulate’ the World?

                      That should be enough to chew over for a while, whether or not it has much impact on your belief system. Fact-checking services can be easily dismissed by people who try to believe 6 impossible rumours before breakfast.

                      #54403 Reply
                      Paul Barbara

                        @ Dr. Edd May 29, 2020 at 16:18
                        Firstly, are you actually a doctor? This is a plain straight-forward question, out of interest.
                        I do not trust Snopes as a pukka site to check for accuracy, any more than I trust Metabunk.
                        Nor do I trust the WHO to judge itself when condemned, any more than I would trust Bliar, BoJo, the Clintons or Al Capone.
                        The MSM in general is supportive of vaccinations, and of governments and Big Pharma (just like here, there is money to be made from pharmaceutical ads, and government perks like ads and access, so they are likely to ignore or belittle stories that go against the government narrative.
                        4 respected Kenyan labs checked samples of vaccines – they prepared reports. I am sure they did not use pregnancy kits to do the testing, or they would have made a laughing stock of themselves. It is perfectly possible that concerned members of the public used that sort of test. A handy way for the government and it’s backers to try to smear the lab reports, though, by implying (but not stating) that the labs used the pregnancy testing kits for the reports.
                        Samples were also sent to a South African lab, and also tested positive for hCG.
                        And you seem to have missed another link in my comment:
                        ‘Ex Prime Minister Exposes Tetanus Vaccine In Kenya As A “Targeted Mass Sterilization Program”.
                        ‘…There are no vaccine ‘watch dog’ organizations out there, and if we truly had ‘vaccine safety’ there would be some in place.
                        Disturbingly, the polio vaccine in question, was also made by the Serum Institute, and you may remember reading about them in the first part of this article, where it has been linked to the fake hepatitis vaccine in Uganda.
                        Who is going to hold these companies accountable, or scrutinise the way they are produced? The Serum Institute for example should be under investigation for it’s involvement in a ‘fake’ vaccine scandal and for producing a vaccine that was found to have anti-fertility ingredients in it.
                        The truth is, no one really knows exactly what is in a vaccine. The labels clearly can lie and if they do indeed lie, then nothing is being done about those lies….’
                        I have contacted the Kenyan Bishops Conference in an attempt to learn more, and will be contacting other sources as well.
                        I believe the sources I have already provided are more than sufficient to warrant extreme concern, and the mere denials of the alleged perps do not in my view override the sources I provided.
                        You may have noticed that another link I provided previously was regarding Gates alleged $10 million bribe to Nigerian Senators to railroad through a Mandatory Vaccine law.
                        As for Gates’ comments about vaccines and population control, they are ambiguous and can be seen in different ways. I believe his major concern is depopulation rather than saving lives. You can believe what ever you like; maybe Gates really is the best thing since Mother Theresa.

                        #54406 Reply
                        SA

                          Paul
                          Do you ever verify your links? I guess not, you just believe any rubbish they print.
                          If you open that link they have a link to the source of what they claim are fake vaccines and if you click on this you get this website
                          In this they discuss the possibility that someone has faked all this and it is not necessarily the manufacturers. But more interestingly we get these comments from three different websites regarding your quoted website Collective evolution.

                          #54407 Reply
                          Paul Barbara

                            @ SA May 29, 2020 at 20:06
                            Never mind what website it appeared on, are you denying the ex-Prime Minister said this ‘AWARENESS: Ex Prime Minister Exposes Tetanus Vaccine In Kenya As A “Targeted Mass Sterilization Program”? Because on the same site, is KTN TV footage of him saying it.
                            Here is another site: ‘Raila Odinga: Tetanus vaccination is a mass sterilization on women
                            and here is another: ‘Tetanus vaccine made our women infertile- Raila Odinga‘.
                            Regarding the ‘fake Vaccines’ article, it was not the article I was referring to, as I am sure you are fully aware. That was a different case, on the same website. I clearly referred to the Tetanus vaccine case.

                            #54409 Reply
                            SA

                              So what? More conspiracy websites! Do you really believe this nonsense?
                              What about answering Dr Edd’s detailed Analysis? You keep coming back with more allegations and no proof. If someone alleges something it doesn’t make it a fact. Do you not understand this basic principle? Where is the actual science to back these allegations? Where is there a proper scientific paper that shows these findings?

                              #54410 Reply
                              Paul Barbara

                                @ SA May 29, 2020 at 22:18
                                And where are your scientific papers proving the vaccines didn’t contain hCG?
                                And I don’t mean some reports on samples sent to labs by the WHO – I mean proving the samples the Bishops and doctors sent in, or that they still have from their same batches. Though past their use by date, they should still be capable of testing for hCG, if they have stored any.
                                The Kenyan Conference of Catholic Bishops and the Catholic Doctors Association have no reason to fake results, or to publicise fake results – they are not anti-vaxxers. But certain people (like Bill Gates) do have an expressed interest in cutting down the human population, and though they generally hide the lengths they are willing to go to attain that, sterilising women surreptitiously would certainly be par for the course for these types.
                                I have contacted the KCCB asking for an update on the case.

                                #54422 Reply
                                SA

                                  Well done Paul, you are on the same page as Trump in your suspicion of the WHO.

                                  #54423 Reply
                                  SA

                                    Paul
                                    “And where are your scientific papers proving the vaccines didn’t contain hCG?”
                                    Since when is it the onus of anyone to prove a negative? What proof do we have that you have stopped beating your wife?
                                    I tell you what. You answer Dr Edd’s detailed refutation of what you posted first and then we can move on. You did this before, you ignored his answer? Why. Please answer Dr Edd first.

                                    #54424 Reply
                                    SA

                                      Statement from WHO and UNICEF on the Tetanus Vaccine in Kenya

                                      The World Health Organization (WHO) and the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) express their deep concern about the misinformation circulating in the media on the quality of the Tetanus Toxoid (TT) Vaccine in Kenya.
                                      The allegations are that the tetanus vaccine used by the Government of Kenya and UN agencies is contaminated with a hormone (hCG) that can cause miscarriages and render some women sterile. These grave allegations are not backed up by evidence, and risk negatively impacting national immunization programmes for children and women.
                                      Human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) is a hormone produced by the placenta, during pregnancy. hCG is also produced in the pituitary glands of males and females of all ages. However, very high levels pose risks to pregnancy.
                                      We have taken note of test results claiming to show levels of hCG in samples submitted to some clinical laboratories. However it is important to note that testing for the content of a medicine, e.g TT Vaccine needs to be done in a suitable laboratory, and from a sample of the actual medicine/vaccine obtained from an unopened pack and not a blood sample. Furthermore the Pharmacy and Poisons Board – the legally mandated National Regulatory Authority has the capacity and mandate to determine the quality, safety and efficacy of medicines and to advise the Government accordingly.
                                      WHO and UNICEF confirm that the vaccines are safe and are procured from a pre-qualified manufacturer. This safety is assured through a three-pronged global testing system and the vaccine has reached more than 130 million women with at least two doses of TT vaccines in 52 countries.
                                      Given most tetanus cases in Kenya are among newborns, the target group of Kenya’s TT vaccination campaigns is girls and women (15-49 years), with a particular emphasis on those in the most marginalized areas. We note with concern that Kenya is one of the 25 countries where tetanus is still a public health problem, killing hundreds of newborns every year.WHO and UNICEF reiterate our readiness to support the Government of Kenya in its efforts to provide safe and quality assured vaccines for the immunization programmes.
                                      Dr. Custodia Mandlhate
                                      WHO Representative Kenya

                                      #54427 Reply
                                      Paul Barbara

                                        @ SA

                                        ‘…Since when is it the onus of anyone to prove a negative? What proof do we have that you have stopped beating your wife?…’

                                        The onus is on the government and manufacturer to prove that vaccines are safe, particularly when vaccines are mandatory. In the Italian case, they both failed to provide the safety testing documentation requested – implying they had not done these safety checks – that would not be unusual, seeing as US regulatory board mandated to give a report every two years on vaccine safety and improvements failed to do so even once in 32 years. Had the Italian or Kenyan governments provided the requested information, they would then have been required to show that the tests showing contaminants that the relevant bodies’ lab tests had shown up where faulty.

                                        ‘…I tell you what. You answer Dr Edd’s detailed refutation of what you posted first and then we can move on. You did this before, you ignored his answer? Why. Please answer Dr Edd first…’

                                        I tell you what – you tell me which of ‘Dr. Edd’s’ questions I have not answered?
                                        As for me being on the same page as Trump, like a broken clock, even Trump can be right twice a day. The fact that he and I both attack the WHO is correct, but we both attack it for different reasons. I whole-heartedly condemn what he is trying to do – to blame China for weaponising the coronavirus, and spreading it (something I believe was intentionally done by the US Military Contingent to the Wuhan World Military Games that opened on 18th October 2019, the exact same day Gates and cronies had their ‘Event 201′ Coronavirus Pandemic Simulation’ in New York, the culmination of nearly a full year of ‘drills’), in order not only to alleviate blame of his catastrophic reaction and its results to the spread of Covid – 19, but principally to steal Chinese assets, and to welch on US debts to China, as ‘reparations’ for damage supposedly done to the US economy by the ‘Chinese Flu’. I believe things are going to get very nasty on that front very soon.

                                        • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by modbot.
                                        #54428 Reply
                                        SA

                                          Paul
                                          You are so immersed in conspiracies it is not possible for you to see any reason. Dr Edd answered you about the Italian case and you ignored his answer. Why is it that the safety of the tetanus vaccine used worldwide and the safety checks are endorsed by the WHO and other bodies has only been questioned by catholic priests in three countries? What about the millions being given the vaccine around the world? Why have no concerns been raised by the church of England? or Adventists or jehovas witnesses? Since when is the church an arbiter on health matter? You do not believe in the WHO. Enough said, I shall not argue with you, stay happy in your beliefs, they will not be challenged.

                                          #54442 Reply
                                          Paul Barbara

                                            @ SA May 30, 2020 at 10:28
                                            I have never said, or implied, that ALL Tetanus vaccines are laced with hCG. Just batches sent to certain countries, at certain times.
                                            IF the allegations in Kenya, Mexico, Nicaragua and the Philippines are true, then there are an awful lot (probably millions) of childless marriages, broken marriages, wives dumped when it becomes apparent they cannot bear children, women driven to prostitution because no one will marry them, abuse, murders and suicides.

                                            #54444 Reply
                                            Clark

                                              Paul, you need to learn how to properly explore scientific matters. Either that, or… Well I was going to say, just stop commenting on them, but that wouldn’t be a good solution, for you’d be merely self-censoring.

                                              Cooperating with SA and Dr Edd would be a good start. I promise you, you are supporting dozens of groundless rumours, some of which are promoted by money-making concerns.

                                              Undermining understanding of science is useful to the powerful, because science is empowering, study is empowering. Note how the 9/11 stuff diverts attention from Condoleezza Rice and Dick Cheney onto a bunch of engineers. Note how it is used against Noam Chomsky, Amy Goodman and Julian Assange.

                                              Stop fighting and start listening. People here would help you.

                                              But I’m probably wasting my time and effort.

                                              #54447 Reply
                                              Paul Barbara

                                                @ Clark May 30, 2020 at 18:21
                                                I appreciate that you believe you are right, and your attempts to put ‘oil on troubled waters’ re SA.
                                                But I am just as sure I am right, and the fact I can get fewer ‘Respectable’ sources is, perhaps, because ‘Respectable’ sources have been progressively compromised, just like the MSM and indeed the Universities.
                                                T’rump and the Pompous Pirate are increasingly putting the blame on China, and as you will see (I have a crystal ball, but not nearly as good as the one the PTB have) they are going to come out with the ‘claim’ that the Chinese weaponised the coronavirus. They are going to be able to roll out quite a bit of ‘circumstantial evidence’, to back up their narrative.
                                                I believe the Chinese have been set up, just like OBL, and over a considerable length of time.
                                                I think a month, at most three, and you will see I’m right about the stitch-up being perpetrated, though you won’t necessarily see how the set-up was organised.
                                                China owns a lot of property and government bonds in America – long before this Covid business, I thought that was an extremely dicey behaviour on the part of China.
                                                We shall see. Don’t expect a regime run by Mega Crooks (as in War Criminals) to play by the book; I’m referring to the US, but it is also applies to the UK.

                                                #54452 Reply
                                                Clark

                                                  Paul, the Chinese government carries a lot of responsibility for covid-19. First the local authorities suppressed the doctors who were reporting a new type of pneumonia; they closed down their chat group. By doing that instead of assisting them, the authorities wasted time and the Chinese New Year kicked off, with people travelling all over china, spreading the virus. When things started getting bad in Wuhan the government finally started taking it seriously, but they lied and lied; they told the WHO that it didn’t transmit between people, and although they restricted travel in most of China, they only ever admitted to a big outbreak in Wuhan. The Chinese death toll is probably five times what the authorities admitted to. They wouldn’t permit the WHO to inspect at will; instead the WHO representatives were permitted only to certain places that they were taken to, like the west ’embeds’ reporters with the military.

                                                  But other governments are responsible for the outbreaks in their own countries by not preparing and leaving restrictions too late. The worst government responses that I know of are Brazil, the US and the UK. So instead of taking responsibility for their own negligence, they blame China.

                                                  Paul, science is very different from politics, and particularly foreign policy. Most political decisions are made in private if not secrecy, and foreign policy is made on information from “intelligence” agencies. Science is far, far more open. Healthcare is the case in point. There are big problems with pharmaceutical companies withholding data, but the effects of pharmaceuticals occur in the public, and most countries perform public health monitoring.

                                                  You think MMR causes autism because you believe Wakefield, but that’s so utterly, provably wrong that you clearly have no clue how to investigate such matters. You claim to reject the “MSM” (and I do wish you wouldn’t call it that, because the corporate media being mainstream is one of the things we need to change), but it was only the MSM that turned Wakefield’s paper into a massive hoax.

                                                  Honestly Paul, on scientific matters you haven’t a clue. Wakefield, Mikovits, Wiggington; these people are shameless charlatans, and it is so sad seeing you fall for their lies.

                                                  I e-mailed Chandler. He blocked me; called me a troll. Won’t discuss with me, no.

                                                  #54453 Reply
                                                  Clark

                                                    Paul, you may be interested; on the same day that the US “intelligence” agencies raised suspicions that SARS-CoV-2 escaped from the Wuhan lab, the US quietly withdrew from its joint US-China bat coronavirus research programme in that lab.

                                                    Biolab security is a bad joke

                                                    #54460 Reply
                                                    Paul Barbara

                                                      @ Clark May 30, 2020 at 23:18
                                                      The Chinese system is very centralised, and when the outbreak started the central authorities would not have known what they were dealing with – but probably sussed out very early it was either a release from Wuhan lab or a bio-warfare attack. Until they figured out more about it, the central authorities did not want information leaking out. So they silenced the local information leakers. As soon as they realised they had a very serious problem, they did ‘Lockdown’ and many people were prevented from dispersing for the Chinese New Year. I don’t know the numbers who got out, and those who got stuck in Wuhan, but the Chinese authorities aren’t stupid, and as soon as they were aware of the dangers, stopped travel.
                                                      See ‘Last Man Standing‘; apparently there was a local delay informing the centre.
                                                      In your next comment, you state that ‘..on the same day that the US “intelligence” agencies raised suspicions that SARS-CoV-2 escaped from the Wuhan lab, the US quietly withdrew from its joint US-China bat coronavirus research programme in that lab…’, but don’t provide a link or even the date. You are right, I would be very interested in that. Was it in November?
                                                      US alerted Israel, NATO to disease outbreak in China in November — TV report‘.
                                                      I have read different reports about the amount of money Fauci’s organisation gave the Wuhan lab, $370 million and $3.7 million; I don’t know which is correct. Also that another similar amount was stopped after the outbreak.
                                                      Through most of 2019, the US was doing a rolling Coronavirus Pandemic drill, culminating in the ‘Event 201’ coronavirus simulation on 18th October, the very same day the Wuhan Military Games opened. It has been pointed out to me that the ‘Event 201’ was, on letterheads, shown as ‘Event 2(then a picture of the globe)1’ – apparently seen by many as indicating ‘Agenda 21’.
                                                      In 2017 Fauci predicted that there would be an outbreak within two years:
                                                      ‘Dr. Fauci Warned In 2017 Of ‘Surprise Outbreak’ During Trump Administration’.
                                                      I may not, as you say, know much about science, but I can sense a set-up from at least three light-years away.

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