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I refuse to dialogue with someone who threatens me with the ‘Mods’every five minutes.
Go and try to intimidate someone else.@ Clark
‘…However, the vaccine program itself reduces incidence of natural polio, so there comes a time where natural polio prevented by the oral vaccine gets outweighed by the polio caused by the vaccine…’
Syria hadn’t had any polio cases for a long time – then Western agencies saw fit to bring in oral polio vaccines – and voila – Syrian refugee kids started coming down with crippling polio from the vaccines. Was this deliberate? Well, the West also arranged for it’s mercenary headchoppers to flood into Syria, and they already murdered many hundreds of children, so it is not a stretch to suspect it was just another attempt to cause harm to Syria’s citizens.
Sure, I mentioned the Lancet and New England Journal of Medicine. But it was because they not only whistleblew how they were being manipulated by Big Pharma, but they also collaborated with them, printing their BS articles which were obviously just that. But maybe you didn’t read the article. Plenty of good scientific links.Paul, look, you may as well stop posting this tirade of details amounting to a campaign against vaccines, because I can’t be bothered to read them. I have read so much of this stuff you have posted, over the course of years, on dozens of diverse subjects, and you are wrong far more often than you are right, and you nearly always exaggerate, and/or extrapolate unreasonably. Reading your stuff wastes my time far more often than not.
And you should read my comments more thoroughly including the ones to other participants, in this case SA; my position is nothing like what you assume it to be. Look at what I wrote to SA earlier:
– “Conspiracy theory is valid theory, indeed essential in a world rife with competition, collusion and deception. Without it we would all be dupes…”
Had you even noticed that I’d read that? Or had you merely scanned some of my writing, concluded that you hadn’t converted me yet, and so bulldozed on in to post yet another cherry-picked and probably exaggerated and over-interpreted example, pursuing a More of Doctrine all of your own?
– “Perm Sec: He will be guilty. Whether he is guilty is irrelevant, he will be found guilty. This is where we use “more of”.
– Minister: “More of”?
– Perm Sec: Yes, “More of”. It’s not an official legal term, but all the lawyers know it as the oldest trick in the prosecutor’s book.
– Minister: What do you mean, Permanent Secretary?
– Perm Sec: Well look, we have the canoodling episode, the kiss in the office and a couple of suggestive remarks about sexy clothes.
– Minister: The sexy remarks are hardly illegal, are they?
– Perm Sec: Good God, Minister, what century are you in? (Canned Laughter). Sexual harassment, Minister. Kiss someone at the office party and tell someone else their figure looks good in that blouse, and you have established a pattern of behaviour. “More of” you see, Minister. The “more of” this stuff you throw, the better chance some of it will stick.”The crap they threw at Salmond, you throw exactly the same type of crap at vaccines, doctors and scientists. But what’s sauce for the goose…
You simply pay no attention to your debating partners. It seems to me disrespectful, as if you think you couldn’t possibly learn anything from such dupes of the MSM. It is infuriating.
But some people can also be duped by the hoaxter antivaxxers.
Paul. By refusing to answer me you admit you lost the argument. The mods can only be a threat to you because whenever you try to answer your comments get deleted. I wonder why?@ Clark
‘– “Conspiracy theory is valid theory, indeed essential in a world rife with competition, collusion and deception. Without it we would all be dupes…”
No, I had not read that, but what I have seen is not just with me, but with many, you calling their comments out as ‘conspiracy theory’.
We might meet up on a Demo some day.Their animal trials failed, but they still roll out their new recombinant vaccine:
‘CHILDREN RECRUITED IN U.K. FOR COVID-19 VACCINE TRIAL‘.
‘…Oxford’s ChAdOx1 nCov-19 (“chimpanzee adenovirus Oxford 1” novel coronavirus-19) recombinant vaccine is made from a genetically modified adenovirus that infects chimpanzees used as a viral vector into which the COVID-19 genome is inserted so the cells of the human body express the new coronavirus’s Spike Protein (S) and induce antibodies that are supposed to prevent infection.2Some researchers have noted that, “Viral vector-based vaccines require assessment of efficacy and safety, including immunogenicity, genetic stability, ability to evade pre-existing immunity, replication deficiency or attenuation, and genotoxicity.”3 Others have emphasized that the selection of an appropriate viral vector for a new vaccine depends upon “a thorough knowledge of the infectious agent for which the viral-vectored vaccine is being developed.”4
There are gaps in scientific knowledge about the origin of the new coronavirus and the biological mechanisms involved in the way it infects and causes disease in humans but, like most COVID-19 vaccines being fast tracked to licensure, the vaccine being created by Oxford/AstraZeneca is compressing clinical trials testing into months rather than years.Reminds me of John Gummer:
‘Gummer unrepentant on feeding daughter a hamburger‘.
Would any readers on here offer their children up as guinea pigs for a completely new type of GMO recombinant vaccine?Yes, conspiracy theory is a recognisable mode of thought. I’m thinking that it is necessary to a social species that routinely practices lying and collusion, but that on its own and applied unevenly it produces nonsensical, paranoid results.
Paul, you don’t employ conspiracy theory as a mode of thought when you assess Wakefield’s claims, for instance. You only apply it to the opposite side. It seems that to anything you regard as “official” you apply extreme suspicion, but anything you regard as “alternative” you just accept without scepticism. Maybe that’s not what you do, but that’s certainly how it looks to me.
Conspiracy theory as a mode of thought is necessary but far from sufficient. People are motivated by material self-interest, and they frequently collude to that end as well, so we need suspicion as a defence. But there isn’t just one big conspiracy controlling everything, with everyone else angels fighting it and being demonised by it.
Take Wakefield as an example. Remember what his press conference was really for. He didn’t argue against vaccines. He argued against one specific vaccine, MMR, and he argued for three separate vaccines instead. He was absolutely lauded in the corporate media, yet you always claim that’s a red flag – but since you’ve already reached your conclusion, you discount it on this occasion. Lorraine Fraser had a dozen articles about him including an exclusive interview in the Telegraph describing him as “a champion of parents who feel their fears have been ignored”. Justine Picardie did a glossy photo feature for the Telegraph colour supplement; “a glossy-haired hero”, suggesting a Hollywood blockbuster with Russel Crowe and Julia Roberts.
Wakefield ticks your boxes for distrust – he promoted vaccines, and the so-called MSM promoted him – yet for some reason you invert your usual values in this case. This isn’t scepticism; it’s gullibility.
@ Clark
‘…Lorraine Fraser had a dozen articles about him including an exclusive interview in the Telegraph describing him as “a champion of parents who feel their fears have been ignored”…’
Good on her! Did she get the sack?
Every now and again, particularly in the past, even MSM like the BBC can put out spectacularly good articles or documentaries, like the ‘Operation Gladio’ series, and ‘Dead in the Water’ about the USS Liberty (53rd Anniversary just passed). Panorama used to put out some good stuff too. And Thatcher was so angry about ‘Death on the Rock’ that she made sure the company that put it out didn’t get their broadcasting licence renewed. Credit where it’s due – once in a blue moon, MSM steps up to the plate.– “Good on her! Did she get the sack?”
No, she got British Press Awards Health Writer of the Year 2002.
There were thousands of MSM articles pushing the MMR-autism myth. They reported every unsubstantiated rumour of Wakefield being right, and studiously ignored multiple peer-reviewed papers showing his results were false positives.
I have brought you new information, but are you capable of reassessing, or have the thoughts fossilised in place?
Paul, you linked to oye.news. I spent yet more of my time taking a look around this site and I have severe doubts about it, eg. it blatantly misrepresents Greta Thunberg to actually invert the meaning of the quote they abstracted, casting her as a supporter of big finance. It hosts global warming denial, and misrepresents Extinction Rebellion.
I think you need a lot more scepticism of these obscure websites. Natural News is another, with a load of hit-pieces based on sting operations aimed at Bernie Sanders. I suspect a lot of these sites are covert PR company products.
But just ignore your ally, because you made your decisions years ago.
@ Clark June 11, 2020 at 14:52
You are right about the Oye website, but the info checks out on sound sites:
‘Oxford COVID-19 vaccine to begin phase II/III human trials‘.
‘The Vaccine Reaction‘.
Seems they are not giving out much info, particularly re the 5 – 12 age group.
Some sites say no financial reward, others say £625. If the £625 is available for ‘child recruits’, it could certainly be a strong incentive for some parents, but like I said, I can’t find info on it.
The Big Pharma normally test their vaccines on Third World children, but more of them are beginning to wise up.
Whether their is a financial incentive or not, it doesn’t seem right to expose your children to be guinea pigs for a new vaccine. If an adult wants to volunteer, fine, but to ‘volunteer’ your children is something else.@ Clark
You are also right about Natural News. I have known for a long time it is highly suspect politically, pro-T’rump, anti-Russian and anti-Chinese, but healthwise they seem sound. If I see something on there now, I try to get confirmation from different sources.
The guy who runs it, Mike Adams, seems to genuinely believe what he puts out – when T’rump was waffling about Mandatory vaccines, he openly disagreed and was willing to stop supporting him. But politically he is typical Right-Wing Redneck.
I bought a jug water filter that he recommended on his TV show (Zero Water), not from him but from the UK. I don’t believe he sells them – he did a sophisticated test of about ten jug filters, and that was one of the best. It’s expensive (filters £12.50 each, last three weeks) but it certainly is effective. Way I look at it, it’s the equivalent of a pint of beer a week.It’s the way oye.new slanted it rather than the info. The new vaccine has already had phase I trials on adults only, and the Phase II isn’t only on children, as the oye site managed to suggest by omission. The vast majority of recruits will be adults.
– “The guy who runs [Natural News…] seems to genuinely believe what he puts out”
Yep, that’s how it works; use a front to fund the sincere because they’re more convincing and have better reputations. That’s how much of the global warming denial campaign was run, routing funds and articles to well-intentioned bloggers. That campaign has wasted over thirty years in that battle, until eighteen years of arctic ice melt made it undeniable. It would have been easy to fix if we’d started in 1988 when Hansen testified to Congress. Now, it’s the Devil’s own mess.
Big Pharma have major incentives in anti-vax. If the US vaccine court were abolished, all the claims for well established vaccine injuries would have to be fought by the parents, using their own funds versus corporate legal departments; what do you reckon their chances would be? The rich might win, but the poor with inexperienced public lawyers would be stuffed. And the less vaccination there is, the more pharmaceuticals will be used in treatment of the preventable diseases. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if big pharma are actually funding anti-vax.
– “The Big Pharma normally test their vaccines on Third World children”
And not just vaccines. There’s a whole section about it in Goldacre’s Bad Pharma. All the regulations are more lax in poorer countries, including the monitoring to ensure that the same data (promoted for publication because it’s positive) doesn’t get recycled into multiple misleading papers.
– “it doesn’t seem right to expose your children to be guinea pigs for a new vaccine”
That depends how dangerous you think vaccines are. There have been countless billions of vaccinations. Occasionally something goes wrong, but with so much vaccination, the proportion is small.
But the anti-vax sites gather this all up from over decades, and present it over and over again to make it look like there’s a major problem. They also claim all the problems are covered up, yet their examples of problems link to public sources!
Then the right-wingers link it all to the supposed UN “depopulation agenda”. Agenda 21 is a UN sustainability initiative, so no wonder the right are spreading fear of it; it opposes big business’s wish to do as it likes, trample rights, trash the environment and make billions. Did you get this link from Iain Orr?
RealLifeLore2 – Why Diego Garcia Is America’s Most Controversial Military Base (YouTube, 10m 28s)
See the bit about the International Court and the vote at the UN General Assembly. The UN isn’t all bad. The major problem are the five Permanent Members of the Security Council.
@ Clark
I didn’t see Iain Orr’s clip, but I knew the gist of it. I know about the difference in the UN General Assembly and the Security Council; most noticeable with votes re Israel/Palestine.
And I’ve been on a few Demos with the Chaggosians.
‘..Occasionally something goes wrong, but with so much vaccination, the proportion is small..’
Well, 50 -100 million deaths in the ‘Spanish Flu’ certainly indicates ‘something going wrong’, but you probably did not check that link.50-100 million deaths in Spanish flu. This rather stupid conspiracy theory comes from Kevin Barry. I shall waste no time reading it but a full analysis of the stupidity of this statement and the conspiracy theory of the ignorant antivaxxers, posing as pseudo scientists can be read here
More conspiracy theory nonsense being posted in this forum.@ Clark
‘…Big Pharma have major incentives in anti-vax. If the US vaccine court were abolished, all the claims for well established vaccine injuries would have to be fought by the parents, using their own funds versus corporate legal departments; what do you reckon their chances would be?…’
No, the people would sue together under Class Lawsuits, like they did with Monsanto. That was why Big Pharma instructed their Congressional buddies to come up with the Vaccine Court.
However hard, it’s easier to score against the corporations than against the government backed by the corporationsPaul, you’re right, I didn’t read it. You’ve sent me on too many wild goose chases already.
What I want is for you to raise your game to the point where it’s worth following your links. My previous experience indicates that your “crystal ball” is way out of adjustment, but as you don’t know how it works you couldn’t possibly calibrate it.
– “the people would sue together under Class Lawsuits”
With vaccine injury in the one-in-a-million range, there would only be a handful each year.
‘MMR Vaccine Caused Autism in Two Children According to Federal Vaccine Court‘.
‘…It happened again. The federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) has awarded Ryan Mojabi and his family a multi-million dollar settlement for autism as the result of an injury from the Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) vaccine. Ryan’s family joins Hannah Poling and at least 85 others who have received judgments for vaccine-induced autism from the VICP. These people aren’t supposed to exist. We are told again and again that vaccines cannot cause autism, vaccines have never caused autism, and vaccines never will cause autism. Except when they do.Here is the link to the settlement document.
Well, if any of you clicked the link, you would get have got:
‘Page not found
The requested page could not be found.
Howard T. Markey National Courts Building • 717 Madison Place, NW, Washington, DC 20439 • 202-357-6400’
They don’t like it ‘up ’em’.
But no sweat, here it is.
I wonder why they hid the page in the first link, and why no cat seems to have got the MSM’s tongue (though Time Magazine did cover the Poling case)?
‘…Time Magazine summed up the relevance of the Poling case in 2008: …(T)here’s no denying that the court’s decision to award damages to the Poling family puts a chink — a question mark — in what had been an unqualified defense of vaccine safety with regard to autism. If Hannah Poling had an underlying condition that made her vulnerable to being harmed by vaccines, it stands to reason that other children might also have such vulnerabilities.”
Then-director of the Centers for Disease Control Julie Gerberding (who is now President of Merck Vaccines) stated: “The government has made absolutely no statement indicating that vaccines are a cause of autism. This does not represent anything other than a very specific situation and a very sad situation as far as the family of the affected child.”
(The link to the Time article was nixed, but here is the article.The there is this one: ‘Family to Receive $1.5M+ in First-Ever Vaccine-Autism Court Award‘.
Perhaps this will stop folks from screeching at me time and again that ‘MMR doesn’t cause Autism’. Certainly it doesn’t, not every time. But it can, and it does, especially with Black children.
I don’t know how these cases got to the Vaccine Court in the first place, because Autism cases are normally barred automatically. I read somewhere that there are 4,800 Autism cases ‘in limbo’.‘No Polio in the Philippines Since 1993, But Mass Polio Vaccination Program Targeted for 500,000 Typhoon Victims Under Age 5’.
I know you touched on the dangers, but shouldn’t UNICEF and the WHO also be aware of the dangers in the oral Polio vaccine?
And again, the same in Syria. I mentioned it before, but had forgotten how long Syria had been free of Polio. Their last case was 1999; then 10 cases suddenly appeared, yet 20 million were vaccinated with the Oral Polio vaccine in 2013:
‘…While Syria has been reportedly polio free since 1999, the discovery of 10 new cases of polio inside Syria has prompted UNICEF to begin vaccinating over 20 million Syrian children under the age of five with the live oral polio vaccine. The aggressive campaign also targets Syrian children outside of Syria in neighboring countries where numerous refugee camps exist.
As Al Jazeer is reporting, “We’re never going to know how exactly how it arrived in Syria.” Guesses are that it originated in Pakistan…’
Yeh, whatever…my guess is it was a deliberate ploy to ‘justify’ the massive Oral Polio vaccination drive, and that the headchoppers or ‘White Helmets’ brought it in – par for the course for them.
‘Are UNICEF Live Polio Vaccines Causing Polio Among Syrians? 1.7 Billion Polio Vaccines Purchased by UNICEF‘And will we hear of new Polio cases among Syrian children? Doubtful; we only hear what fits the US/NATO ‘narrative’, and Polio cases after a Western mass vaccination program hardly makes for good propaganda. Same goes for the Philippines.
@ Clark
‘Italian Court Rules MMR Vaccine Caused Autism: Why is this story blacked out of the US Media?‘.
And it includes a 16 minute video of your old friend Dr. Wakefield. I challenge you to watch it, and say you still have the same opinion of him afterwards.
The truth blazes forth so obviously I find it extremely hard to imagine an ordinary decent person cannot see it as easily as I can.‘A STERILITY DRUG IN FOOD IS HINTED; Biologist Stresses Need to Curb Population Growth‘.
The article can only be accessed through the NY Times Time Machine, which requires a subscription, but the essence of the article is that Nixon’s Scientific Advisor, Lee DuBridge, advised Nixon that food shipped to Africa should be laced with sterility chemicals.
I just point this out, because you seem to think it is just a ‘conspiracy theory’ that the PTB wish to cull the human population, by famines, wars, and artificially produced Pandemics.
At the same time Hitler was killing mentally retarded people and others he despised as useless eaters, Eugenics was popular in high circles in the States. Unfortunately it still is.There is no link whatsoever between vaccination and autism. There is no epidemiological evidence to link the two. There are anecdotes of cases of neurological disease that may be temporally associated with vaccination. To prove that vaccination causes autism a high quality study should show this. There is no such study published.
On the other hand there is some anecdotal evidence that some children who had reactions to vaccines have been awarded some damages. This is true but the number of cases is small and it is worth analysing these few cases that are used as evidence as to why these awards are made. The body awarding compensation for vaccine associated injuries in the US is called National Vaccine Injury Compensation ProgramVaccines save lives by preventing disease.
Most people who get vaccines have no serious problems. Vaccines, like any medicines, can cause side effects, but most are very rare and very mild. Some health problems that follow vaccinations are not caused by vaccines.
In very rare cases, a vaccine can cause a serious problem, such as a severe allergic reaction.
In these instances, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) may provide financial compensation to individuals who file a petition and are found to have been injured by a VICP-covered vaccine. Even in cases in which such a finding is not made, petitioners may receive compensation through a settlement.How does the VICP work?
The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is a no-fault alternative to the traditional legal system for resolving vaccine injury petitions.
It was created in the 1980s, after lawsuits against vaccine companies and health care providers threatened to cause vaccine shortages and reduce U.S. vaccination rates, which could have caused a resurgence of vaccine preventable diseases.
Any individual, of any age, who received a covered vaccine and believes he or she was injured as a result, can file a petition. Parents, legal guardians and legal representatives can file on behalf of children, disabled adults, and individuals who are deceased.What is the process?
An individual files a petition with the U.S. Court of Federal Claims.
The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services medical staff reviews the petition, determines if it meets the medical criteria for compensation and makes a preliminary recommendation.
The U.S. Department of Justice develops a report that includes the medical recommendation and legal analysis and submits it to the Court.
The report is presented to a court-appointed special master, who decides whether the petitioner should be compensated, often after holding a hearing in which both parties can present evidence. If compensation is awarded, the special master determines the amount and type of compensation.
The Court orders the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services to award compensation. Even if the petition is dismissed, if certain requirements are met, the Court may order the Department to pay attorneys’ fees and costs.
The special master’s decision may be appealed and petitioners who reject the decision of the court (or withdraw their petitions within certain timelines) may file a claim in civil court against the vaccine company and/or the health care provider who administered the vaccine.That the claim is settled does not mean that a direct link is proven.
What does it mean to be awarded compensation?
Being awarded compensation for a petition does not necessarily mean that the vaccine caused the alleged injury. In fact:
Approximately 70% of all compensation awarded by the VICP comes as result of a negotiated settlement between the parties in which HHS has not concluded, based upon review of the evidence, that the alleged vaccine(s) caused the alleged injury.
Attorneys are eligible for reasonable attorneys’ fees, whether or not the petitioner is awarded compensation by the Court, if certain minimal requirements are met. In those circumstances, attorneys are paid by the VICP directly. By statute, attorneys may not charge any other fee, including a contingency fee, for his or her services in representing a petitioner in the VICP.
What reasons might a petition result in a negotiated settlement?
Consideration of prior U.S. Court of Federal Claims decisions, both parties decide to minimize risk of loss through settlement
A desire to minimize the time and expense of litigating a case
The desire to resolve a petition quickly.Two such awards are used by antivaxxers to ‘prove’ that a direct link between a vaccine and autism occurs. In fact when you examine them you find that this is not the case. Take the case of Ryan Mojabi. The judgement can be easily found and is not hidden. Take this analysis here of the case, which quotes the judgement and award.
Take this analysis here of the case, which quotes the judgement and award.
In the first case, the parents of Ryan Mojabi, then aged nine, claimed that their son suffered “a severe and debilitating injury to his brain, described as Autism Spectrum Disorder” after receiving several vaccinations between 2003 and 2005, including “more specifically, measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccinations” (see below).In fact, the US court found no link between the MMR vaccination and autism, contrary to what Alternative News Network says.
The court actually found that Ryan suffered encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) within five to fifteen days of his first MMR vaccination on December 19, 2003. They awarded nearly a million dollars in compensation to Ryan’s family.
Brain damage is a very rare possible side effect of the MMR vaccine, according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s website.So to be clear, what Ryan Mojabi had was encephalitis, not autism, even though the family alleged that he suffered from autism.
The Emily Lowrie case
In the second case, the Alternative News Network says a girl named Emily — daughter of Jill Lowrie — “won compensation following vaccine-related brain injury that, once again, involved MMR and resulted in autism”.
This claim was reported in a Huffington Post article in January 2013. Its author David Kirby said the US vaccine court awarded Emily’s family millions of dollars after they alleged she was “severely injured by a reaction to the DTaP vaccine at 15 months (when MMR, HiB and prevnar were also given)”. He added that Emily “has seizure disorder and PDD-NOS, a form of ASD (autism spectrum disorder)”.
But the US Department of Health and Human Services (HSS) “did not admit that vaccination caused encephalopathy or autism”, he says.
The alleged link between the MMR vaccination and autism is added into the Alternative News Network’s article, published four years later. However, the ruling in Emily’s court case does not mention the words ‘MMR’ or ‘autism’. It actually says her mother, Jillian, claims she suffered brain inflammation after receiving a diphtheria, tetanus and a cellular pertussis (DTaP) vaccination.
Brain inflammation is recorded in fewer than one in 10 million doses, the French medical agency (ANSM) says. “The risk of developing brain inflammation after receiving a vaccine is much lower than the risk of developing it because of natural infections,” ANSM added.
It’s worth noting that many people with autism do suffer from brain inflammation, as this 2015 study says. But “it would be false to say that the measles vaccination can cause autism because inflammation of the brain can cause autistic spectrum problems,” said professor Kumaran Deiva, head of paediatric neurology at Bicêtre hospital in France.
“You will not find, except well-established genetic causes, any viral infection which causes autism,” he told AFP. “Inflammation of the brain can cause autistic traits, but not ‘real’ autism, which is characterised by language, behaviour and social interaction difficulties.”So can we please discuss facts. If vaccines cause autism as is alleged why are there so few cases suggesting a link between the two? A robust epidemiological study to try and prove this link could be properly made, if someone was genuinely concerned about it. Millions of doses of vaccines are given to children around the world but there are no reports of connection between the two and safety studies have been studied and safety monitored constantly that shows no such links.
The two cases above proving the link between autism and vaccines do no such thing, they prove nothing. Headlines from antivaccine websites alleging that this is the case prove nothing. Could Paul address this calmly before moving onto other allegations please?
