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OK Paul, I started fact checking your June 12, 01:38 comment #54946, and didn’t get very far. You cited anti-vax site healthimpactnews.com as follows:
– “The federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) has awarded Ryan Mojabi and his family a multi-million dollar settlement for autism as the result of an injury from the Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) vaccine”
So I looked in the settlement document at drive.google.com, your third link, and healthimpactnews.com’s allegation is untrue.
And this is the problem. I follow link after link after link of yours, and your fact checking is worse than hopeless; it’s deliberately biased. If some site says something you already believe, you just swallow it whole and then serve it up for others, applying none of the suspicion you (falsely) claim to apply to the so-called MSM.
Life is too short to keep reading recycled bullshit; it’s up to you to check whether any given article is informative or just biased propaganda.
And you’re still trying to set the agenda, and you’re still pushing your own instance of “More Of”, and you still refuse to engage in a discussion of how we should determine facts. Though mild and passive, these are all forms of aggression.
You need to learn what propaganda is and how it is done rather than just choosing whose propaganda to serve up.
Propaganda, Justice, Peace?
– “They don’t like it ‘up ’em’.”
Not like you’re influenced by the “MSM” at all, is it? “MSM” is such a defeatist term, but just ignore me. After all, if the majority ceased to be “sheeple”, conspiracy theorists would lose their sense of superiority…
– “I wonder why they hid the page in the first link”
It’s probably been moved to PACER.gov, because all such records are moved to PACER. PACER is an injustice; it requires a login and payment, but moving documents there isn’t the same as hiding them. You again indulge in FUD, which is why you and your ilk are best not taken seriously. But just ignore me; you always do…
SA – “A robust epidemiological study to try and prove this link could be properly made, if someone was genuinely concerned about it”
That has been done, multiple times, because plenty of researchers have exercised due concern. Every study showed no link. You can find meta-analyses in the Cochrane Library.
It is important to distinguish between genuine debate and propaganda. But this is what we have here, an amplification of this propaganda not just by it being posted on a reputable site repeatedly, but by me and you clicking on the links provided thus augmenting their viewing figures. I have tried hard to be fair to Paul but he has very arrogantly avoided answering me on the basis that I am intimidating him. I think if I was it would be up to the mods to admonish me and point out that this is against the rules of the website, but I have not had such a warning.
Paul is being indulged here to avoid censorship. And both you and I have tried hard to answer his many false claims. I do not know how long this will go on for but having done my bit, I think I will now finally withdraw from this futile discussion which is just prolonging this harmful propaganda.Sorry for this being unclear: I meant the study should be done and published by the antivaxxers to prove this, rather than the sniping and selectively cherry picking. I am of course aware that studies have been done by the main stream establishment doctors but of course these are worthless for the antivaxxers.
– “…you seem to think it is just a ‘conspiracy theory’ that the PTB wish to cull the human population…”
Paul, this statement illustrates that you have paid no attention to what I have written about conspiracy theory.
However, wasting yet more time on someone who demonstrates obvious contempt for me, I watched the video of Wakefield.
Now Paul, I have a question for you. Of what relevance is my opinion of Wakefield to any scientific matter?
SA – “It is important to distinguish between genuine debate and propaganda.”
I strongly agree; what Paul is doing is promoting propaganda. The trouble is, the majority of people are so immersed in propaganda that they don’t even recognise it. They think ‘propaganda’ means a particular set of beliefs, not a particular set of methods for biasing people’s opinions.
– “…he has […] avoided answering me on the basis that I am intimidating him”
Conspiracy theorists typically use any excuse they can think of to avoid engagement, because conspiracy theory employs a very weak range of argument methods; promoting suspicion and FUD, “More Of” mud-slinging, quote-mining, insinuation.
– “Sorry for this being unclear”
No apology necessary. I saw how you’d left that matter and decided I’d best clarify before you were pounced upon with “and that research never will be done because the PTB and the MSM don’t want you to know of their evil scheme that only us fearless truth-tellers can see”. I’ve had considerable experience with conspiracy theorists.
@ Clark June 12, 2020 at 11:24
Thank you for watching the short Dr. Wakefield video.
You will have noticed that 19 of his papers are still up, only one was withdrawn. You will now be aware of Wakefield’s side of the issue. Appears the withdrawn work has been replicated a number of times, and he has challenged a government accuser to a televised scientific debate, as MSM don’t allow him a chance to rebut the slurs on him and his work.
I can only hope that parent’s and their doctor champions win out eventually against Big Pharma and government lies and crimes.
You have previously said or implied Dr. Wakefield had a ‘conflict of interest’ (I don’t believe you used those precise words, but words to that effect) because he was working with a firm who made the single vaccines. The reality of the situation was Dr. Wakefield has never been an ‘anti-vaxxer’, he always pushed for the single vaccines, but the government agent responsible (he names the perp), when he asked why they had stopped allowing the vaccines to be available as single vaccines instead of three-in-one, said it was because if they continued allowing people to opt for the single shots, it would destroy their MMR Program.
If you search through my comment, I’m sure you can find some ‘t’ I haven’t crossed, some slight slip to pounce on, but the meaning is clear.
I would add, it is common practice by government agencies and Corporations, when they award damages, to do so ‘without prejudice’ and with gagging orders.
I am still trying to get an update on the Kenyan alleged hCG lacing cases, and copies of the lab reports the Catholic Bishops and doctors relied on.Paul, you could be waiting a long time for the reports from the institutions commissioned by the Kenyan Conference of Catholic Bishops (KCCB) and the Catholic Doctors Association (CDA). Here, as promised, is further information about those “vaccine tests” which claimed to find traces of hCG. (Thank you for your patience.)
In summary, the tests to which you refer weren’t actually vaccine tests: they were body fluid tests inappropriately applied to vaccine solutions. Those test results did not indicate anywhere near enough quantities of hCG to interfere with the reproductive system in any way. They were subsequently contradicted by (proper) independent vaccine tests by the Kenyan Ministry of Health which found no traces of hCG. The two disputing parties then embarked on a more extensive joint testing programme, which found that the only traces of hCG amongst the 59 samples were in the (opened) vials provided by the bishops’ organisation. They issued a joint statement concluding that the vaccines did not contain hCG and had no effect on reproductive health. Case closed. (Except perhaps for conspiracy-minded individuals who think that all those independent agencies were somehow colluding to deceive the public in order to surreptitiously prevent Kenyan women having babies; even the Catholic bishops must have started conspiring against themselves. Plausibility rating: zero.)
The four laboratories reportedly were the
- University of Nairobi College of Health Sciences
- Lancet Kenya
- Mediplan Dialysis Centres
- METR POLIS Star Lab.
(One source suggests that samples were also tested at another lab in South Africa, though it isn’t mentioned in the reports.)
These are all credible institutions in their own right, and it would be gauche to accuse them of corruption. However, they didn’t have the specialist equipment required to analyse the active constituents of vaccine samples. Moreover, they weren’t even told what the substances were, so they used tests intended to identify pregnancy hormones in bodily fluids (blood, urine).
The staff in these laboratories could not however tell whether the samples were vaccines or not, as this was not declared to the testing laboratories by the Catholic Doctors Association. The laboratories tested the samples for hCG using analyzers used for testing human samples like blood and urine for pregnancy. There is no laboratory in Kenya with the capacity to test non-human samples like vaccine for hCG.
After these rumours were spread, attempts were made to analyse TT vaccines for the presence of hCG. The vaccines were sent to hospital laboratories and tested using pregnancy test kits which are developed for use on serum and urine specimens, and are not appropriate for a vaccine such as TT, which contains a special preservative (merthiolate) and an adjuvant (aluminum salt). As a consequence of using these inappropriate tests, low levels of hCG-like activity were found in some samples of TT vaccine. The laboratories themselves recognised the insignificance of the results, which were below the reliable detection capability of the kits and were due to a nonspecific interaction between the adjuvant or other substances in the vaccine and the test kit. However, these results were misrepresented by the ‘pro-life’ groups with the resulting disruption of immunisation campaigns.
(Source: Snopes – Is Tetanus Vaccine Spiked with Sterilization Chemicals?)These flaws were identified by the Kenyan government, and reported in the Catholic Reporter and the Catholic News Agency.
There are two main things to note here: (a) the tests were designed for use with bodily fluids, not vaccines, and thus were not fit for purpose; (b) in any case, the trace amounts of hCG implied by the positive test results were clinically insignificant (as noted in the initial lab reports sent back to the bishops).
The WHO also raised concerns over the methods used by the labs. They noted that while there “is a situation where anti-βhCG antibodies can be produced by the body and that can act as a contraceptive, the levels reported in the independent labs’ results are millions of times less than the amount needed to trigger this contraceptive response”. [my italics]
They also enumerated a list of concerns and observations on the lab results, including a lack of a control reference, blurred-out sections of the results, and their agreement with one of the lab technicians that the results do not “implicate anything that contravenes the use” of the vaccine. This was reiterated by UNICEF, thus:
UNICEF Press Officer Rita Ann Wallace obtained responses from Dr. Peter Okoth, Health Specialist, Child Health, UNICEF Kenya.
As for the assertions made by the bishops, UNICEF’s Dr. Okoth said, “[T]he Catholic Bishops of Kenya are wrong. Their assertions about the tetanus vaccine and hCG are not backed up by evidence. The report from the laboratories that analyzed samples provided by the church shows that the results are invalid. The equipment that was used in the analysis should only be used to analyse human samples such as blood and urine and not vaccines. The samples were not properly identified as required — the laboratories were not informed if these were vaccines, blood or urine samples.”In effect, these labs were (quite innocently) testing whether the vaccine-producing industrial equipment was pregnant – which is clearly nonsensical. The tests were never validated for detecting hormone subunits amongst highly concentrated vaccines comprising toxoids, adjuvants and preservatives.
Similar methodological flaws inspired the original scare story in Mexico, Nicaragua, Tanzania, and the Philippines, as noted in Reproductive Health Matters:
The vaccines were sent to hospital laboratories and tested using pregnancy test kits which are developed for use on serum and urine specimens, and are not appropriate for a vaccine such as TT (tetanus toxoid), which contains a special preservative (merthiolate) and an adjuvant (aluminum salt).
When the vaccines were tested in laboratories which used properly validated test systems, the results clearly showed that the vaccines did not contain hCG. The results found in six laboratories in five countries on tetanus toxoid vaccines from seven manufacturers are available on request. The low levels of hCG-like activity seen in some samples were the result of false positive reactions. In fact, in a laboratory in Hungary, it was shown that the sterile water supply from the local hospital gave a higher false positive level of HCG than did the TT vaccine.If even sterile water returns a positive result, then scepticism about the validity of the tests is certainly well justified. But even if hCG had been present in the concentrations implied, it was far, far below anything that could interfere with fertility, and certainly couldn’t cause sterility.
The Kenyan government was aware of these serious shortcomings in the lab reports, but was concerned enough to order its own tests to verify the integrity of the vaccines nonetheless. When the vaccines were tested in laboratories which used properly validated test systems, the results clearly showed that the vaccines did not contain hCG.
Moreover, the Catholic agencies misrepresented the results, claiming that they were evidence of a clandestine sterilisation programme. The bishops pressed ahead with their smear campaign against the vaccination programme, subsequently resolving:
that we shall not waver in calling upon all Kenyans to avoid the tetanus vaccination campaign laced with Beta-HCG, because we are convinced that it is indeed a disguised population control programme.
Yet the hormone was only alleged (in those unreliable tests) to be present in trace amounts. Nobody ever proposed to inject each woman millions of times to build up a sufficient level of βhCG to trigger an antigenic reaction to it.
UNICEF waded into the controversy:
UNICEF Press Officer Rita Ann Wallace obtained responses from Dr. Peter Okoth, Health Specialist, Child Health, UNICEF Kenya.
Asked whether the tetanus vaccine supplied was laced with the Beta-HCG hormone, Dr. Okoth said it was not and that “all vaccines supplied to countries are procured from WHO pre-qualified suppliers that follow a very rigorous control process.” In addition, he said, “the vaccines are also registered and monitored by the national regulatory authority, including for any adverse event which might follow immunization.”
Dr. Okoth said that “UNICEF categorically denies that it is involved in a ‘disguised population control programme,” and that it “definitely” would support having the vaccine tested by independent laboratories.Take note that these criticisms weren’t based on assumptions or guesswork, but on the details of the equipment and testing protocols contained in the laboratories’ own test reports. Dr Okoth concluded: “The results shared by the church are invalid.”
As mentioned in that excerpt, UNICEF decided that the best way to resolve the issue was for the Kenyan Ministry of Health to carry out a joint programme of independent testing, in partnership with the Bishops.
“UNICEF is ready to support the Government of Kenya to undertake another independent testing for hCG in a reference laboratory. ”
Great – a joint testing exercise should settle it. So how did that go?
To resolve the impasse, the Kenyan bishops’ conference and the Ministry of Health formed a joint commission that submitted 59 vials of the vaccine from three locations to two laboratories in December 2014.
Three of the vials were found to contain beta HCG. According to a signed Jan 10 statement released by the joint commission, those three vials were “submitted as open vials having previously been tested in other laboratories.” A Jan. 23 lab report commissioned by the joint commission from AgriQuest indicated the three open vials that tested positive were provided by the Kenyan bishops’ conference.
The joint statement also said, “All the other 56 vials tests were found to be negative for beta HCG, including those with batch numbers corresponding to the three vials that tested positive.”Hmmm. The three vials supplied by the bishops tested positive for hCG, but all the others tested negative – including samples from the same batch that the bishops had originally tested. Suspicious or what? The samples supplied by the KCCB were not in hermetically sealed packs from the manufacturer: they had been opened and were therefore subject to contamination – or deliberate tampering.
Bear in mind this was a collaborative programme administered by representatives from both the Ministry of Health and the KCCB, and the statements above were approved by both parties. The joint statement concluded:
“Routine tetanus immunization program is safe. Mass immunization campaigns remain a useful public health intervention but quality assurance mechanisms should be applied at all times.”
Incidentally, the actual tetanus toxoid vaccine would be a very hostile environment for the hCG hormone, as it doesn’t have the same constitution as the carefully balanced compounds used in Prof. Talwar’s 1994 study into the viability of a βHCG-TT contraceptive, in which the TT was only used as a carrier: it didn’t work as a tetanus vaccine. In a November 2014 statement, the Center for Disease Control (CDC) emphasised:
“There is not, and never was, human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) in any Tetanus Toxoid (TT) vaccine used for tetanus prevention
… because of the adjuvants and preservative contained in tetanus toxoid, it is unlikely that HCG could remain active in a vial of TT.”The KCCB’s allegations insinuated that the vaccine caused permanent damage to the reproductive system, effectively rendering the women barren. However, the effects of Prof. Talwar’s hCG-TT contraceptive vaccine were only temporary and reversible; it required regular booster injections to sustain the contraceptive effect. Indeed, it was specifically designed not to cause hormonal imbalances (as with the progesterone-based “contraceptive pill”) and to avoid long-term impact on the reproductive system.
If that isn’t empirical enough for you, then please note the evidence that the TT vaccine did not affect the pregnancy rate in the women who were vaccinated:
Dr. Tabu (Head of Immunization at the Ministry of Health) said the same vaccine has been used for 30 years in Kenya. Moreover, “there are women who were vaccinated in October 2013 and March this year who are expectant. Therefore we deny that the vaccines are laced with contraceptives.”
In their Feb. 13 statement the Kenyan bishops referred to Mexico, Nicaragua and the Philippines, where they said “tetanus vaccination campaigns sponsored and funded by WHO and UNICEF were found to be poisoned with Beta HCG.”
From the National Catholic Reporter:
This is an apparent reference to a longstanding rumor that the TT vaccine used in immunization programs has been contaminated by HCG to reduce women’s fertility. The CDC traces the rumor to the 1994 publication of a report on a small clinical trial in India of a contraceptive vaccine made of HCG and TT. The World Health Organization was not connected to the trial. Further, the experimental vaccine used in the trial was created by the researchers for that study and was not related to the vaccine produced by commercial suppliers, the CDC said.
The CDC said the presence of HCG in TT tests conducted in Mexico and the Philippines in 1994 was clearly shown by subsequent lab tests to be below the limits of accuracy of the test kits used. Six independent labs in five countries ran tests on TT from seven different manufacturers, including those supplying the countries affected directly by the controversy. All the tests were negative for presence of HCG. Global Program for Vaccines and Immunization director Dr. Lee Jong-wook declared in a WHO statement issued in July 1995 that the rumors “are completely false and are totally without any scientific basis,” according to the CDC.
The Kenyan bishops’ conference did not respond to a request for an interview. A representative of the Kenya Ministry of Health initially offered to secure an interview with the director of medical services, but did not do so.
So the Kenyan Ministry of Health, the Catholic News Agency, and the National Catholic Reporter are all in on the conspiracy too? You can read the September 2017 announcement from the Kenyan Ministry of Health affirming:
The Ministry of Health wishes to strongly refute allegations appearing in sections of the press on safety of tetanus toxoid vaccine to women of reproductive age. This is not only unfortunate, but also a baseless pronouncement not backed by any scientific evidence, ill intended to cause fear and despondency among Kenyans in the uptake of much needed essential health services.
In this regard, the Ministry wishes to clarify as follows:
1. This is an old matter raised by the Kenya Conference of Catholic Bishops (KCCB) three years ago and has since been resolved through a joint Tetanus vaccine testing committee which comprised of the Ministry of Heath, Academia and the Catholic Church representatives (KCCB).
2. The joint committee was tasked to sample tetanus toxoid vaccine vials from the contentious batches and qualitatively analyse their safety.
3. The joint committee found the sampled vaccine vials to be safe and free from any contaminants and recommended the vaccine for use.
4. Subsequent consultative meetings between the Ministry and KCCB gave a clean bill of health to the tetanus toxoid vaccine with successful vaccination campaigns taking place in 2016 and 2017.That’s the last word on it from the KCCB. It’s an old, debunked rumour, which someone seems to have repurposed for nefarious objectives. Bear in mind that Neonatal Tetanus is a very fatal condition responsible for around 215,000 deaths every year worldwide. For whatever reason, you seem determined to keep those numbers high.
– “The reality of the situation was […] the government agent […] said it was because if they continued allowing people to opt for the single shots, it would destroy their MMR Program.”
No, that’s merely Wakefield’s allegation.
– “MSM don’t allow him a chance to rebut the slurs on him and his work.”
There’s a reason for that, but it takes a bit of thought. Do you have any interest in this? Or would you rather reflexively assume the hand of an overarching conspiracy?
I asked you a question Paul. Of what relevance is my opinion of Wakefield to any scientific matter?
I keep asking questions and you keep ignoring them, so my impression is that you are avoiding debate and instead evangelising. Maybe it’s true that you really have nothing to learn, and your scientific and medical expertise outweighs that of the scientific and medical communities. The chances seem vanishingly small; what do you reckon Paul?
@ Clark June 12, 2020 at 10:25
‘…OK Paul, I started fact checking your June 12, 01:38 comment #54946, and didn’t get very far. You cited anti-vax site healthimpactnews.com as follows:
– “The federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) has awarded Ryan Mojabi and his family a multi-million dollar settlement for autism as the result of an injury from the Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) vaccine”
So I looked in the settlement document at drive.google.com, your third link, and healthimpactnews.com’s allegation is untrue….’The Petitioners claimed under ‘encephalopathy’ as otherwise it would not have been accepted for jurisdiction; ‘encephalopathy’ is an accepted Vaccine Table Injury, and that is what they paid out under. But the encephalopathy caused the ‘Autism Syndrome Disorder’, which they had also claimed for. Technically, you are right, and the article should have been more careful in it’s wording, but basically the encephalopathy caused the ASD:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4717322/
‘…In recent years, many studies indicate that children with an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) diagnosis have brain pathology suggestive of ongoing neuroinflammation or encephalitis in different regions of their brains…’https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_EFkxNKPV_nkM2zzOISfLX666MzolvQJ/preview
‘…Petitioners alleged that as a result of “all the vaccinations administered to [Ryan] from March 25, 2003, through February 22, 2005, and more specifically, measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccinations administered to him on December 19, 2003 and May 10, 2004,” Ryan suffered “a severe and debilitating injury to his brain, described as Autism Spectrum Disorder (‘ASD’).” Petition at 1. Petitioners specifically asserted that Ryan “suffered a Vaccine Table Injury, namely, an encephalopathy” as a result of his receipt of the MMR vaccination on December 19, 2003. Id. In the alternative, petitioners asserted that “as a cumulative result of his receipt of each and every vaccination between March 25, 2003 and February 22, 2005, Ryan has suffered . . . neuroimmunologically mediated dysfunctions in the form of asthma and ASD.” Id. at 1-2.On June 9, 2011, respondent filed a supplemental report pursuant to Vaccine Rule 4(c) stating it was respondent’s view that Ryan suffered a Table injury under the Vaccine Act – namely, an encephalitis within five to fifteen days following receipt of the December 19, 2003 MMR vaccine, see 42 C.F.R. § 100.3(a)(III)(B), and that this case is appropriate for compensation under the terms of the Vaccine Program. See Resp’t Report, June 1, 2012, at 3-5. This filing followed: (1) the conduct of two fact hearings; (2) petitioners’ determined efforts to obtain medical records from Ryan’s emergent treatment in Tehran; and (3) the issuance of a fact ruling by the undersigned…’
ASD = Autism Spectrum Disorder.
The Vaccine Court avoids the ‘autism’ diagnosis like the plague, not because they are don’t know it can be caused by vaccines, but because of the immense cost of compensating all the victims.
@ Dr. Edd June 12, 2020 at 13:46
‘…Hmmm. The three vials supplied by the bishops tested positive for hCG, but all the others tested negative – including samples from the same batch that the bishops had originally tested. Suspicious or what? The samples supplied by the KCCB were not in hermetically sealed packs from the manufacturer: they had been opened and were therefore subject to contamination – or deliberate tampering…’
One way of looking at it. The three opened vials that the Bishops supplied were found to be positive. Given the Bishops had struggled to get the first ones for testing,they also would have had difficulty getting the three they submitted. I would like to know how they got them. But the fact they tested positive for hCGt adds to my belief the Bishops and Catholic Doctors were right – the originals were laced with hCG. The alternative, that the Bishops themselves laced them, is to me beyond belief. Cui bono? Gates himself is on record stating vaccines could cut populations down by 10/15%. Even the Devil tells the truth on occasion.
The Bishops and doctors had a big ZERO to gain from lacing the vaccines, and certainly aren’t ‘anti-vaxxers’. I trust the Kenyan Bishops (although I certainly do not trust all Catholic Bishops), and I do not trust the WHO, UNICEF or the Kenyan Government or their MSM denials.
I still intend to get the information from the Bishops and the lab reports.
I am totally convinced that the PTB want to depopulate the African continent; they lust after Africa’s huge resources, but without it’s people.
I posted this before, but I’ll just add it on here to show there is some truth in this depopulation idea:‘A STERILITY DRUG IN FOOD IS HINTED; Biologist Stresses Need to Curb Population Growth‘.
The article can only be accessed through the NY Times Time Machine, which requires a subscription, but the essence of the article is that Nixon’s Scientific Advisor, Lee DuBridge, advised Nixon that food shipped to Africa should be laced with sterility chemicals.
I know my reply is not much against your work, but I want to hear the Bishop’s and Catholic doctor’s side of this, before conceding any ground. And not second-hand.@ Dr. Edd
I should add that of course hermetically sealed batches of Tetanus vaccine tested negative, the manufacturers are hardly going to supply laced vaccines for testing, are they?
And interestingly, in one of your links, it said how the vaccines were only allowed to be given by government agents, and that they arrived with police escorts, and took any unused vaccines back with them. With the vast health facilities the Church has in Kenya, they are obviously perfectly capable of administering vaccines, and I imagine generally do – that is one of the things I shall ask, when I manage to make some decent contact with them.– “The Vaccine Court avoids the ‘autism’ diagnosis like the plague, not because they are don’t know it can be caused by vaccines, but because of the immense cost of compensating all the victims.”
This is stupid. If “all the victims” were caused by MMR causing encephalopathy, then there would be millions of encephalopathies.
And you’re still setting the agenda. All you ever do is post fallacy after fallacy, and everyone else has to run around correcting you. You haven’t the slightest interest in any evidence that runs counter to your fantasies except to ensure that it never gets considered, by forever avoiding discussion and just posting more fallacies to be refuted. It’s very aggressive and obstructs fair discussion.
You’re doing exactly what you accuse the “MSM” of doing.
Paul, I often wonder to what extent your sort of belligerence cost us a Corbyn government. Nearly all your stuff comes off right-wing sites, but that never makes you pause to think. You have the likes of me and SA working damn hard to try help you overcome your error, but you treat us as if we’re gullible idiots.
I REPEAT:
– “MSM don’t allow him a chance to rebut the slurs on him and his work.”
There’s a reason for that, but it takes a bit of thought. Do you have any interest in this? Or would you rather reflexively assume the hand of an overarching conspiracy?
I asked you a question Paul. Of what relevance is my opinion of Wakefield to any scientific matter?
I keep asking questions and you keep ignoring them, so my impression is that you are avoiding debate and instead evangelising.
@ Clark June 13, 2020 at 11:36
‘…I often wonder to what extent your sort of belligerence cost us a Corbyn government…’
Yes, I understand, you clearly have problems thinking logically. Happens to us all eventually, but on this occasion I’m happy to be in a position to set you straight – it wasn’t me or the likes of me who scuppered Corbyn, it was a smear campaign organised by you-know-who and gleefully amplified and augmented by the MSM, and by Right-wing traitors in the Labour Party intent on bringing him down, and by electoral fraud. The last is difficult to prove, but glaringly obvious to smart folk like me, even without consulting my crystal ball.
The MSM, ‘Security Services’, armed forces, IDOX, HM Government and ‘Foreign Powers’ were all ranged against him; the ‘will’ was certainly there, and the opportunity in the IDOX Tory company largely controlling processing of the votes, with little chance of any fraud coming to light because of so many agencies would be ‘looking the other way’. Cui Bono?
Sure, there’s a lot of speculation there, but that’s how I reckon the completely unexpected ‘Landslide’ was managed.
However flimsy you might find my explanation, it’s a darn sight more logical than yours.
But that is par for the course.@ Clark June 13, 2020 at 11:36
‘…There’s a reason for that, but it takes a bit of thought. Do you have any interest in this? Or would you rather reflexively assume the hand of an overarching conspiracy?..’
Yes, I think it should be pretty obvious to a ten year old that I have an interest in the vaccine debate: I did not believe such a question required or deserved a response.
Yes, as you are aware, I instinctively suspect a conspiracy in any skulduggery, not necessarily ‘overarching’ but on a ‘need to know’ basis.‘…I asked you a question Paul. Of what relevance is my opinion of Wakefield to any scientific matter?
I keep asking questions and you keep ignoring them, so my impression is that you are avoiding debate and instead evangelising.’I avoided your question? I asked you for your opinion of Wakefield after watching his interview; instead of telling me, you fire off a question to me. So you didn’t answer my question. It’s OK for you to do it, but heinous for me.
But, here goes: I asked you to watch the short video interview, and then tell me your opinion of Wakefield, because many people, including myself, can make a pretty sound judgement of watching someone’s interview, as to their character and if they appear to be telling the truth. Your answer would provide have me with a more balanced idea of you rather than him.
Yes, of course I am evangelising. It is incumbent on me, as a Christian and as a caring human being, to do my best to spread the truth as I know it re what can be causing life-long distressful illnesses, sometimes completely ruining lives or even causing death, to babies and young children.
I assume you are trying to do the same, it’s just you believe the risk of adverse effects is worth the alleged ‘benefits’, and I don’t.
All that I have written here should have been plain to you in the first place – why waste your and my time?– “a smear campaign organised by you-know-who and gleefully amplified and augmented by the MSM, and by Right-wing traitors in the Labour Party intent on bringing him down”
Yes, I know all that, except no, I want you to spell out “you-know-who”.
The thing is, smear campaigns need a grain of truth at their core, or they’re easily seen to be fantasies. You and your ilk provided that grain, just as the corruption of the pharmaceutical companies and collusion of government regulators provide the grain at the heart of all the bullshit you promote.
Two wrongs do NOT make a right, and your promotion of alt-propaganda is not justified by the propaganda you’re opposing. It takes two to tango and it’s time you deprived your opposite number of a partner.
– “I asked you to watch the short video interview, and then tell me your opinion of Wakefield, because many people, including myself, can make a pretty sound judgement of watching someone’s interview, as to their character and if they appear to be telling the truth.
Wakefield’s character and honesty have ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING upon the SCIENTIFIC question of whether MMR causes autism. Scientific questions are answered by EVIDENCE, not by trust in some authority. I hoped you’d at least get that much from Bad Science, but I seem to have overestimated you.
@ Paul Barbara, 12:31
Andrew Wakefield is a very engaging speaker and the case he outlines in that video could seem very convincing to anyone with little knowledge of the medical science or historical background. But the interview comprises mostly counterclaims, challenges to his critics, and indignant bluster – and there’s a great deal of relevant information on the studies that he didn’t mention.
Here’s an alternative short video from the Khan Academy which sets out the problems with his research in simple terms, with clearly drawn diagrams — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6gpw_Deth8
In part 2, you’ll find the alternative motives for his claims, and the story of how and why he was struck off the GMC register — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGb9m1dbNdM
Enjoy! 🙂
@ Clark
‘…Yes, I know all that, except no, I want you to spell out “you-know-who”..?
Yeh, and I want to marry a millionairess.
O reflection, you may be right that it was me who scuppered Jeremy Corbyn’s rightful place as our Prime Minister. I say that because I have just heard he has put out a contract on me….Paul, I hope you’ve had a good sleep after supporting the Black Lives Matter protesters yesterday. It’s Sunday, the day on which we should reflect upon how we can each best serve what’s good, so I hope you’ll again consider what I wrote earlier about opposing sides having dependence upon each other – action and reaction.
@ Clark June 13, 2020 at 11:01
‘…– “The Vaccine Court avoids the ‘autism’ diagnosis like the plague, not because they are don’t know it can be caused by vaccines, but because of the immense cost of compensating all the victims.”
This is stupid. If “all the victims” were caused by MMR causing encephalopathy, then there would be millions of encephalopathies…’
Nothing ‘stupid’ about it, if the following studies referred to are correct – perfect sense, in fact:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4717322/
‘…In recent years, many studies indicate that children with an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) diagnosis have brain pathology suggestive of ongoing neuroinflammation or encephalitis in different regions of their brains…’Paul, I beg and plead. We need a discussion about how we determine things.
There are more scientific papers released each day than any one person can simply read, let alone understand, or follow the included citations. It would take you and I years of study just to become conversant with the background of research into autism. You want me to read that paper, out of the thousands of relevant papers, but on the other hand you have consistently neglected counter-evidence presented on this thread, and forged on ahead thereby omitting discussion of it.
This is advocacy, not investigation.
Please tell me, how did you come by that particular paper?
@ Clark
‘…Please tell me, how did you come by that particular paper?…’
It’s on the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) website; as you will note, I gave the link where I found it above.
To save you looking it up:
‘…Relevance of Neuroinflammation and Encephalitis in Autism
Janet K. Kern,1,* David A. Geier,1 Lisa K. Sykes,2 and Mark R. Geier1
Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer
This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
Go to:
Abstract
In recent years, many studies indicate that children with an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) diagnosis have brain pathology suggestive of ongoing neuroinflammation or encephalitis in different regions of their brains. Evidence of neuroinflammation or encephalitis in ASD includes: microglial and astrocytic activation, a unique and elevated proinflammatory profile of cytokines, and aberrant expression of nuclear factor kappa-light-chain-enhancer of activated B cells. A conservative estimate based on the research suggests that at least 69% of individuals with an ASD diagnosis have microglial activation or neuroinflammation. Encephalitis, which is defined as inflammation of the brain, is medical diagnosis code G04.90 in the International Classification of Disease, 10th revision; however, children with an ASD diagnosis are not generally assessed for a possible medical diagnosis of encephalitis. This is unfortunate because if a child with ASD has neuroinflammation, then treating the underlying brain inflammation could lead to improved outcomes. The purpose of this review of the literature is to examine the evidence of neuroinflammation/encephalitis in those with an ASD diagnosis and to address how a medical diagnosis of encephalitis, when appropriate, could benefit these children by driving more immediate and targeted treatments…’
Seems short and sweet to me, not too complicated, even for me (apart from the long scientific words!)….@ Dr Edd June 13, 2020 at 15:54
I did reply to you, but somehow it has disappeared. I can’t imagine why the Mods would have removed it, so I probably messed up by clicking the wrong button.
Basically those two videos are pretty damning, but I will hold off judging till I hear Dr. Wakefield’s defence. His offer to debate the issue live on TV will not be taken up by his government tormentor, I’m sure, so I’ll wait till Dr. Wakefield replies as I believe he intends to online, as he is blocked by the MSM (as they do to our host).
