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Why the Covid-is-a-hoax conspiracy theory is crazy is that it surpasses all others. It involves the Chinese collaborating with US to bring down themselves. Of course you know that the virus is no where near as dangerous as ‘they’ make it out to be and of course your statement is based on what someone who knows the inside out of virology and epidemiology told you because they know what they are talking about. That is unless you have your own personal analysis.
So here we have a problem. ‘They’ who made up this hoax. Who exactly are they? And why does their story run on similar lines across world borders, political divides and scientific disciplines? Why are all the main people working in the fields of virology, medicine and epidemiology all agreeing? Silly me, it is the secret world government of course that is telling them what to say and do. And moreover they are doing that to produce vaccines that don’t work and are killing people. Now of course, those who are telling you all this are highly qualified individuals in the same field who have their own data (not). It really becomes a matter of opinion what one thinks about viruses, virologists are redundant because an investigative journalist, a failed scientist turned politician and some natural medicine promoting websites say so.
And what is even more shocking is that they pretend that hospitals are inundated with patients and can’t cope and will do everything to prove this. The doctors we once trusted and might still go to for really serious illnesses, are all lying to us because they were told to do so. Hospitals full of patients in many countries? Shortage of oxygen in India? Why, just stress actors and panic buying.
This distortion of facts and the Trumpian alternative facts of the conspiracy theorists is what makes the current covid denialists the worst conspiracy theorists ever. They are now willing to unite with such political figures and give themselves the right to terrorise healthcare workers and to mislead others. Many are now denying that HIV is real and also become affiliated with notorious antivaxxers.
(oh dear…)
J – “why I should give one fig what your understanding of rationality or facts are…”
Pink Floyd – Pigs On The Wing (Part 1) – YouTube, 1 minute 26 seconds.
J – “…that is anyone’s guess.”
Just ask; I do try to be honest, accurate and consistent.
And yes, I have found, in my own personal experience, that there’s a strong correlation between conspiracy theory and anti-Semitism. I was even asked, face to face, if I was Jewish, because I argued against holographic aircraft and the Twin Tower demolition hypothesis, In my experience, the perpetually undefined “Them” of conspiracy theorists often resolves to “Jews” – far more often than I’d expect by random chance.
Ginger Ninja, you need to think more. Yes, there is considerable circumstantial evidence that Building 7 may have been hurriedly brought down as a fire break with the knowledge and even involvement of the New York Fire Department, and that this emergency demolition was covered up. And that tells you what, exactly?
And no, the “official story”, as conspiracy theorists put it, is a set of gross distortions and conspicuous omissions – and 60% based on false confessions extracted under torture*. But it isn’t conspiracy theory; it doesn’t posit that everything is arranged by some virtually superhuman conspiracy that can control all evidence.
* I find it interesting that conspiracy theorists never mention the false confessions extracted under torture. It’s one of the reasons I reject conspiracy theory as worse than useless; indeed, convenient to the establishment.
Unfortunately, my time is limited. I’m off to COP26 tomorrow and I have a lot to do before then.
The Romans thought that if a defendant gave testimony not under torture, that testimony should be considered unreliable.
What is conspiracy theory? One attribute of conspiracy theorists is to be oblivious to the contradictions in their own thinking, eg:
Ginger Ninja, Nov 3, 16:36 – “Then the virus clears up when needed too […] The best viruses are the ones that have to be controlled, via medication, for life”
So which is it? Does it “clear up when needed to”, or does it “have to be controlled, via medication, for life”? With “rationality” as pliable as this, absolutely any assumption can be “proven”. Then there’s this:
– “…causing an invasion of Syria.”
Syria? The so-called Syrian civil war didn’t start for another decade, and no government has claimed to have invaded Syria. Ginger Ninja, you may have some correction to do before I start taking the piss.
Ginger Ninja, Nov 3, 19:18 – “The virus is real. But it’s no where near as dangerous as they’re making out.”
It’s a real shame you’re thinking like such a propaganda victim; this is exactly the line the corporate media have been giving credence to all along.
Plus you’ve failed to understand the problem, apparently due to thinking individualistically and not socially, which again is exactly the mindset indoctrinated by corporate propaganda.
And who is this “them” exactly? If I count up the deaths and infections aboard the cruise ship Diamond Princess, divide one by the other and come up with 1.8% infection fatality rate, do I become one of “them”? What about the research teams in Spain and New York, who came up with 0.5 to 1.0% infection fatality rate? Are these members of “them” too?
Ginger Ninja, I couldn’t live in a mind as disorganised as the thinking you’re displaying here. I’d have to tidy up a bit just to stay marginally sane. I really can’t just throw the cutlery and crockery into the vacuum cleaner cupboard and simply call it the “them” cupboard to avoid contradictions. It just doesn’t work for me.
[ Mod: Message retrieved from the spam bin. An earlier one may have been lost when the spam list was flushed. ]
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“So which is it? Does it “clear up when needed to”, or does it “have to be controlled, via medication, for life”? With “rationality” as pliable as this, absolutely any assumption can be “proven” “
Both — AZT used for AIDS. Medication for life. The pandemic cleared up when they needed Africans for cheap labour. Suddenly the “pandemic” dropped off the radar. Ebola buggered off in much the same way. So – once the towel becomes fully saturated, they do sort of clear it up when needed, placing it in a drawer for later. It is a bit of a paradox, it’s Schrodinger’s corporate pandemic.
— Levothyroxine used for treating thyroid. Medication for life. I bore witness to the sudden rise in supposed thyroid issues when a corporate veterinary business bought up a load of clinics in the area, suddenly every cat needed life long treatment, many died shortly after receiving their very suspect diagnoses. I came to the conclusion that this is how “corporate medicine works”. Over diagnose, over medicate, tell all and sundry there’s a problem and x can fix it. keep ’em on it for life if possible. *
Thalidomide anyone?
Noting also the sudden rise in transvestitism causing far too many people to sign up for lifelong hormone treatments made me even more cynical. I honestly think this has been guided by the sneaky hand of corporate medicine too.
We’ll be taking Schrodinger’s “cure” forever I imagine. At ten times the price no doubt.
Timing is everything. The US has been hoovering up businesses left right and centre. I think the covid pandemic has been set off somehow for this purpose. Dragging “allies” into wars etc., anything to drag lesser nations into debt so they’re more vulnerable to a bit of vacuuming. Those they can’t plunder with physical war, they plunder economically. Since we’re now a ‘turnip republic’ our ministers are more like local chiefs being allowed to take tribute from their people so as not to kick up a fuss, allowing the imperials the better cuts of meat. The need to nobble China and reset trade is a factor too I imagine.
*A travelling companion/housemate from yesteryear went to one of the best universities in the land, landed a top job at a corporate pharmaceutical company, left in disgust (it’s a long story) and over the course of many months, filled me in on the details of how things ARE done in the real world. I’ve extrapolated a view based on certain observations/things I’ve heard, this being one.
And I know this is going to sound even more hilarious to you, but there are some things I can’t mention. I accidentally came across something I shouldn’t have and have chosen to keep quiet about it, I will keep quiet about it forever (and yes THEY are watching and have been since). Loyal to Blighty to the end, you see. I’ve tried to talk to them but they’ve chosen to play the sneak about card instead, apart from that “street interview” (you know who you are, you maniacs). Suffice to say the “accident” added more fuel to my understanding of things.
Anyway, I am a bit mentally disorganised, you could say, naturally I suppose; however my poor writing ability coupled with having to talk around corners too, doesn’t help. Make of it what you will. I stand by the notion that “the powers that be” are capable of things I’ve described and that “they” are out of control and need dissuading from their approach.
Whoever started the ‘What is Conspiracy’ thread planted the tree. So behold the nut.
Ginger Ninja
Thank you for the above which is truly instructive and gets us closer to the original discussion of “What is a conspiracy theory”.From what you write, you obviously have first hand experience of unpleasantness from various quarters. We all have and we all learn to navigate these and our experiences are of varying severity. But what you describe is part of the system called capitalism. It is a set of unwritten rules which basically prioritize profits to people, individualism to society, corporatism versus public ownership. In other words it is a system which is a blueprint, there is no overall all-knowing group of people that control the system, but there are various factions that use the system to their advantage.
The problem of adding it all up to a few people controlling the world, is that you have to lump together such disparate mishaps and misdemeanors and weave them into one overarching conspiracy. I will give you an example. There is nothing whatsoever in common between the Thalidomide tragedy and 911 or Covid or Ebola, they are things that happen, some of them natural (viruses and pandemics are natural phenomena that have plagued mankind (excuse the pun) for centuries and there is no conspiracy as regards these and as regards HIV; it is all very well explained by science.
911 is a political event and so is one liable to serious propaganda and manipulation. As Clark mentioned, the justification of the use of torture resulting from 911 is one of the least discussed aspects of the CTS and also if I may add, is the fact that despite gross negligence, nobody from the establishment seems to have suffered any consequences and no one lost their job.
I will give you another example that I know well. Thalidomide anyone? Indeed. Thalidomide was introduced by a German pharmaceutical company in 1957 as an over-the-counter medication to treat anxiety, insomnia and morning sickness. It was promoted because of its ‘safety’, in those days measured by how much of the drug is needed to kill an experimental lab animal. However, thalidomide was not tested on pregnant animals, and its teratogenic effects were therefore not detected. Because it was such an effective and ‘safe’ drug it became a popular choice to treat morning sickness. It was only in 1961 that it became apparent that it affected the fetus leading to lack of limb development and it was then withdrawn. By the way it never got licensed in US.
Despite the above, thalidomide was still manufactured in various parts of the world. Subsequently it was found to be effective in certain disorders including in Leprosy and some complications of HIV. More recently in the nineties, it was found to be useful in treating some cancers and it is now a mainstay in the first line treatment of a bone marrow cancer, multiple myeloma. There was no ‘conspiracy’ when thalidomide was introduced, it was just using a wrong safety-testing model, call it negligence or poor design with some coverup.
So my conclusion from what you write is that conspiracy theories arise from joining together a number of events that are unrelated into one large overarching conspiracy orchestrated by a ‘covert world government’ rather than looking at each event separately. It is this lack of compartmentalization of events into separate entities, all related to capitalism, that creates CTs.
A note about pharmaceutical companies. Of course pharmaceutical companies being corporations have a legal duty under capitalism to make money for shareholders as a priority, but you cannot make money by being deliberately malevolent and killing people willy nilly and hiding it. They do it by a careful balance of producing brilliant life-saving drugs that are highly effective and that have produced major advances and cures (a lot of the original work of course is done through painstaking research that is often publicly funded, but the pharmaceuticals have the capacity for industrial upscaling) as well as all the other tricks of the trade outlined in ‘Bad Pharma’ by Ben Goldacre.
SA, I appreciate the reply.
And who’s going to rein them in? Who or what can rein in “the factions” etc.? The corrupt press? The suspect “justice” system led by Sir Starmer, Lord of integrity, leader of a non-opposition? The sometimes gullible, sometimes thoughtless but mostly twisted services and their attack dogs? The army of mercenary sneaks reading this post? Nobody, that’s who! Electronic surveillance has seen to that. Any protection that democracy once offered is gone. Far too many people operate in the shadows now – without really knowing who they’re working for – they’re like blind turkeys pressing the Christmas button in the dark.
I stand by the fact that the pandemic has been greatly exaggerated in order to profit the few while holding off many a revolution across the globe, with the added bonus of forcing an even more devilish tracking system on the public. I stand by the fact I say 9/11 was organised as a false-flag.
It is most certainly correct that some institutions have made profit from th Pandemic.
It is all but impossible in England to see a G.P.
It now takes over half an hour to get past the robots before you can speak to the receptionist, who then insist on leaning of your intimate problems, if you do not agree to this opening up, you will never, even get to speak to a doctor, let alone see one.
They revel in it.
Most people have not got three quarters of an hour to push buttons on their phone, to listen to non-stop robot speel.
The last thing they want you to do, is to be able to see an actual doctor face to face.
Is it fear or is it the regaining of the power they once held over us, the sneering at the lower uneducated orders?
M.P’s are another lot
they are innaccessable, they no longer will meet their people, unless you want to bung them money.We are now detatched from powerful people and that is how the powerful like it, we should be pleased to accept any crumb.
The Pandemic has caused this.I agree with you MN regarding the robot answering and the receptionist wanting to know why you want to see a doc but remember they are trying to filter out things like repeat prescription calls and others where medical intervention is not required. GPs have a tough job that has got harder to do over the last couple of decades. They are also combating decreasing numbers and other staffing shortages whilst at the same time coping with an increased workload since the pandemic. The BMA survey this.
Tell the receptionist (get their name first) you have a medical condition that you wish only to discuss with your GP and if they give you trouble tell them you’ll make a formal complaint regarding patient confidentiality and remain polite but firm and insistent.
Ginger Ninja
Yes indeed who will rein in the factions? We do not have a functioning democracy and the glimmer of hope we had with Corbyn has now been extinguished by the advent of ‘safe hands’ Starmer whose main aim was to neutralise the risk from the left for the benefit of the establishment of which he is part. It seems to cause no loss of sleep for the Labour party to have a Sir as its leader. And as you say the press has now been cowed and is an arm of the establishment.What hope is there? Maybe global warming is the tool that will see the end of capitalism as it seems to be beyond human greed to realise what a damaging system it is. But will there be anything salvageable?
G N
“I stand by the fact that the pandemic has been greatly exaggerated…”Steady on man. You have now converted an opinion to a ‘fact’. This to me smacks of Trumps ‘alternate facts’
If you read Naomi Klein’s ‘The Shock Doctrine’ where she discusses Disaster Capitalism, you will appreciate that an alternative explanation is that you do not need to exaggerate an adverse event but just to capitalize on it, and make it work for you. This to me is what has happened with the pandemic.
In fact when you look at your stance it coincides more with what the government has thought all along. They thought they will take it on the chin, at the expense of the elderly and weak in order to save capitalism and now it is out in the open. Whereas some Asian and south Pacific countries took the road to effectively contain the epidemic with strict and early isolation, Western Governments took the line of flattening the curve with half hearted measure, believing that this is better for the economy.
The fact that your present stance on the pandemic are closer to those of the right wingers in the government than to the majority scientific view seems to escape you.
The great trilemma: are globalization, democracy, and sovereignty compatible?
“The paper describes the extant pressures operating to limit each of the three: how sovereignty and democracy work to constrain globalization, how globalization and sovereignty generate a democratic deficit, and how globalization and democracy lead to limitations upon, and even the transcendence of, sovereignty.”
It’s long and wordy but worth a look.
Ginger Ninja, I’ll begin by requesting that you be patient; I’ve just spent an amazing and hectic week at an anarcho-communist squat in Glasgow, a highly unfamiliar environment for me, and I need time both to reflect, and to indulge in some reassuringly more familiar behaviours, so I am not yet in an appropriate mood to consider in detail what you have written and write a properly structured reply.
So for now I’ll just write the following. In your thinking, try replacing “them” with “it”, “it” referring to the profit-seeking, expenditure-minimising nature required of nearly all organisations if they are to survive within the overarching capitalist-neoliberalist system.
Vague example: individual scientists and scientific teams do some brilliant work finding substances that can modify biological chemistry so as to help people with health problems. But that is never the primary objective to which their employer puts their work. Their employer is a structure not an individual, and to thrive in the capitalist-neoliberal environment it has to use its employees work to maximise profit.
Any pharmaceutical thus developed must be deployed to maximise profit rather than health, or the company (which is a structure) will begin to lose out against its competitors, and will eventually be subsumed by one of them. The companies are subject to evolution within the capitalist economic environment, so the ones we currently see thriving are the ones that most effectively maximised profit – maximising health is somewhere lower on their priority list if it appears at all. However, maximising the appearance of improving patients’ health is relatively high on their priority list, in order to maximise profit.
– – – – – – – –“9/11 was a false flag”…
What is meant by this? The 9/11 attacks carried no flag, no one claimed responsibility for it, and no one made any demands based upon it. The attacks seemed more of a statement, made via the symbolism of the chosen targets – US militarism, and US capitalism.
- Ginger Ninja:
– “And I know this is going to sound even more hilarious to you, but there are some things I can’t mention.”
Not hilarious at all; I am in the same position myself regarding a number of matters and I find it intensely uncomfortable and isolating, so I sympathise.
– “I am a bit mentally disorganised…”
Respect to you for recognising this. The system cultivates confusion and division, because whenever people achieve understanding and unity, the system suffers partial defeat. As an example, people’s critical thinking skills and understanding of science are continually undermined by the corporate media; for a highly systematic and entertaining account of this, I recommend Bad Science by Ben Goldacre, which is also essential introductory reading to Bad Pharma mentioned by SA above.
– “And who’s going to rein them in? […] Nobody, that’s who!”
Herein lies the tragedy of conspiracy theory, and its utility to the system. We have some 10% to 20% of the population who are sufficiently dissident to have chosen conspiracy theory in preference to the confusion they call “the official story”, but effectively neutralised by assuming the omniscience of “them”, because opposing an invincible foe can lead only to defeat and punishment. Yet the system would rapidly collapse if the majority merely removed their cooperation from it.
“Organise, organise, organise!”
Abigail Thorn – Ideology is not conspiracy:
Conspiracy theorists are sometimes accused of callous disregard for the dead and injured, merely using them as a vehicle to promote their delusion. I agree, and yesterday an example appeared on Trowbridge H Ford’s obituary thread. On that thread I wrote:
– “Trowbridge was a conspiracy theorist of the old school, proposing political and military conspiracies consisting of small numbers of powerful people and the intelligence agencies, rather than the grand collusions of essentially the entire scientific and technical communities which also require support from nearly all doctors, nurses, local government statisticians, commercial pilots etc. etc. etc. the world over, which seem to have taken over since the turn of the century.”
Johnny conspiranoid felt the need to reply…
– “Political and military conspiracies, consisting of small numbers of powerful people and the intelligence agencies, could manipulate entire scientific and technical communities which also require support from nearly all doctors, nurses, local government statisticians, commercial pilots etc. etc. etc. the world over, using knowledge aquired from scientific studies of group behaviour, propaganda, marketing and the use of paid infiltrators and agents of influence, a bit like color revolutions.”
…with no mention of Trowbridge whatsoever – apparently the urgency of this message overrode any remembrance of Trowbridge himself.
Johnny conspiranoid, I think you should reflect upon your apparent feelings of superiority over such vast numbers of people; maybe they aren’t such compliant idiots as you seem to assume. Have you considered that your own desire to promote conspiracy theory could itself be the result of manipulation “using knowledge aquired from scientific studies of group behaviour, propaganda, marketing and the use of paid infiltrators and agents of influence, a bit like color revolutions”, and if not, why not? That’s a question, johhny, and this is a discussion forum, so please answer it.
“Do your own research”
Interesting podcast from Big Picture Science (a SETI institute production) on 7/2/22. They’re all available from this feed:
https://feeds.megaphone.fm/ADV9362943796
In it (a 55 minute podcast), they mention five steps which denialists of all sorts invariably use:
- They cherry-pick their evidence
- They believe in (and attribute the entire issue to) conspiracy theories
- They rely on fake ‘experts’ and denigrate real experts
- They engage in illogical reasoning
- They believe all science has to be absolutely perfect in order to be at all credible
The 5th in particular, leads denialists to say things like, “Unless you can prove it to me with absolute certainty right here and now, then my belief – however ludicrous – is just as good as yours. Which shows they don’t understand how science works, which is how they are so able to reject it.
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Scientists are increasingly finding their expertise questioned by non-experts who claim they’ve done their own “research.” Whether advocating Ivermectin to treat Covid, insisting that climate change is a hoax, or asserting that the Earth is flat, doubters are being dismissed by being told to “Do your own research!” But is some wiki page evidence? A youtube video? What happens to our quest for truth along the way?Conspiracy theories exist because the filth conspire. Sadly, the majority of people accept what the filth tell them, so they can feel cosy.
One must be selective about what is logical but to deny conspiracies exist, is the height of idiocy.
Why do we allow the most stupid scum on the planet to dictate our future? They deny the infinite leaps of understanding humans are naturally capable of and try to force us to be as stupid as they are.
Yuval Noah Harari is a main mouthpiece for their evil, they have been training us to accept their evil/stupidity for centuries, at least. Thing is, they currently have control of the world’s resources because we allowed it. There will be much death but far less if we refuse to acquiesce. I’m old enough to not fear death but I’m terrified for younger people.
Death is far from the worst thing that can happen to us.
How about sticking around and actually debating some of these points, Demeter, instead of patronising us with some really low-level drivel and then running away? You have form on this. There are plenty of unanswered replies – in fact, I don’t think you have answered even a single one of the points made in reply to points +you+ had raised.
Do you know how to debate? Do you realise that mere assertions are not credible arguments in themselves? Are you aware that condescension does not an authority make?
Sorry, but you rather tick me off. You wasted – utterly wasted – the time of myself, Clark and a couple of others the last time we treated you with a seriousness you simply do not deserve given your form to date.
Ask yourself if we want to be a conscious human being any more, that’s what’s at stake.
